Sunday
Sep222013
Podcast: Reader Questions & Short Term 12
Sunday, September 22, 2013 at 11:00PM 
For today's super-casz edition of the Podcast it's just Nathaniel & Nick gabbing. We argue about Short Term 12's schematic screenplay and individual character arcs (Nathaniel loved it all / Nick did not) and how the movie reflects what we look for in movies. After that discussion it's off to reader questions involving directors & their muses, the art of movie titling (not the credit sequences, the actual titles), and opinion-shifting from past Oscar seasons.
You'll have to listen to find out how Gravity, American Beauty, Vera Farmiga, and Spike Jonze's Adaptation fit into it all. You can do so here at the bottom of the post or download it on iTunes. Join in the conversation in the comments once you've listened.
Reader Comments (12)
I liked the more intimate nature of this one!
Nathaniel, well, I don't want to be that guy but, duh, the movie was called at first Malavita because of the bad life the characters lead, not because of the dog :)
I know I'm supposed to be excited about the different feelings Short Term 12 created in people and want to watch it even more, but Nick has a way of convining me when he's negative about something, though he doesn't always convince me about the virtues of a film which probably means I hate life or something. I guess I'll watch it at some point?
I really related to what you both said in different words, about not wanting to rewatch something you loved for fear of not liking it as much the second time. I have that with Kinsey (At some point I realised Ebert and me were the only two people who loved it).
The movie I changed my mind about (a lot) is V For Vendetta which I had loved, at first, and then I rewatched it and didn't even like it. I wasn't surprised since I first saw it before I had started thinking about movies the way I do now (or even five years ago). I hesitate to rewatch Cuaron's Great Expectations which had been my favorite movie for many years but when you've seen a movie a million times, even if your tastes change, you still feel like you're having the same experience you had the last time.
Anywayyyy, thanks guys!
I've often said that the relationship between liking a film and wanting to rewatch it is a parabolic one. When I hate a film, I (usually) never want to see it again. Then, moving up from the rank of "loathe", the more I like a movie, the more willing I am to watch it again. And then, when I get to my own personal top echelon of film, I'm afraid to rewatch them for fear that I'll change my mind or, even more horrifying, wear them out.
And great questions this podcast. I too grew cold on The Artist, mostly because I tired of its constant hype. The other one that comes to mind is Pixar's Up. I enjoyed it when I saw it, but over the course of Oscar season I read an amazing review that made me rethink its messages, began to feel that most film people were just in love with that one five minute sequences with Carl and Ellie, and started to resent the success that it was getting (compared to the IMO superior WALL-E).
I think I'm somewhere in between you and Nick on "Short Term 12." I liked it a lot (A-), and what keeps it from being great is exactly what Nick (and you too) point out. It's manipulative. It sets up the emotional dominoes that it eagerly wants to knock down. The characters are cliched and their plights are too, and of course these broken characters will turn out to be artistically gifted, capable of profoundly expressing their pain. A lof of it seemed like easy manipulation, but in the end I bought into it. Maybe I was looking for a good emotional cry, or maybe the performances were just that good, but I accepted the film for what it is. I accepted this film in a similar manner that I accepted and liked "Fast and Furious 6." I know I was being manipulated, but I was enjoying myself and that is all that matters. The emotional manipulation in "Short Term 12" is performed with a gentle hand, which is unlike "Precious" where I felt like my face was being pushed down in the mire.
Just wanted to say I think you and Nick are both phenomenally smart critics and it delights me to no end to hear such intelligent conversation about a movie that really deserves it. I'm definitely on your side about this one Nathaniel -- Short Term 12 is POWERFUL -- but Nick really made me think hard about the movie and defend it to myself in a whole bunch of interesting ways.
Thanks for all the great analysis y'all do. It all makes me a better filmgoer and storyteller, which is invaluable. I really love both of your sites.
Thanks for answering my question, guys!
One example where I turned the corner on an Oscar movie in a good way was No Country for Old Men. I was firmly team There Will Be Blood and also really liked Zodiac which probably caused me to be harsher on NCFOM. I was also unfamiliar with Cormac McCarthy at the time, I was in HS, and just starting to get my feet wet with the Coen Brothers. Looking back the movie is kind of genius and gutsy in a lot of ways not to mention it felt like my heart was about to burst on second and succeeding viewings. I should just be glad a movie like that, once in a while wins Best Picture and that somehow the Coen Brothers, with their spotty Academy history, won with that movie of all things.
Munich was another movie that in hindsight, I really thought should have won Best Picture against its other nominees.
An example where I turned on an Oscar movie was probably Inception. I tend to look back on most of Nolan's movies that way and find his whole aesthetic and atmosphere to be bland chilly than cool chilly like Melville or more accurate contemporary counterparts, Fincher and Romanek. But this one came from his own script than being based in the DNA of a comic book. I found some of the stuff to work, Tom Hardy is great and JGL does amazing acrobatics that I wish he got to show off in The Dark Knight Rises. But Leo is not a good match for a Nolan, Ellen Page had nothing to do, Michael Caine just seemed there, and everything Marion Cotillard had with that part as 'Mol' should've warned her to not sign up with another project with Nolan because he just seems to have a weakness in female characters. There's also the whole idea that ambiguity= profundity. As interesting as it was being swept up in the Inception internet theories, the whole concept of dreams felt too neat and uninteresting. Sorry, but David O. Russell being nominated that year instead was completely fine.
This podcast is a marvel. Where else can I hear people talk about empathy and manipulation and identification in filmmaking? I mean really, please let me know because I could listen to this all day. Haven't even gotten a chance to see Short Term 12 yet, and this conversation was still totally illuminating. Also LOL at Blood Wimple.
For the parts of the podcast I can speak to, I'm all for more Vera Farmiga for all of the reasons you've listed and more. Love the idea of her with Glazer, and I'd add that I want someone (Cuaron? PTA?) to use the casually self-assured erotic energy that makes her so fun to watch in Up In The Air and The Departed.
My movie in need of a retitling has to be About Time which is just such a godawful, nondescript title, especially when they could have gone for my version: It Can't Happen To You: Time Traveler's Wife Part Deux.
As a rewatcher, I'm always back and forth on movies, just by virtue of seeing them so many times. My biggest back and forth ever was probably with Vincente Minnelli's Madame Bovary, which was a huge disappointment the first time, because ugh Jennifer Jones and because it's always jarring to see a beloved book Hollywoodized. But on rewatch it kind of revealed itself as a auteurist dream. I mean the ballroom scene in that film (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51M4sbxfKWc) is probably my favorite moment in Vincente Minnelli's filmography and that is SAYING something. Most recent fluctuation was on The Fighter which I was nonplussed by in its awards season context (my heart didn't have room for another movie what with Blue Valentine, The Kids Are All Right and Black Swan in the mix), but which was a total delight to return to without the pressure of Oscar on its heels.
Since this is the internet, and you two now disagree on a movie, it's sad that (according to the rules) you are obliged to now hate each other.
But seriously, great podcast as always (though I look forward to hearing Joe and Katey again because you're all so insightful and not in the same ways). I loved Short Term 12, but i definitely felt what Nick was saying when the employees were telling the anecdote about Marcus at the end. I really had a hard time buying that story and it felt weird that they would go from him being hospitalized to...where we find out he ends up.
Also, did anyone kind of want more of Stephanie Beatriz's character? She has such a great face (shallow comment, I know) and watching the camera find her and show her reactions to the various things that were going on in the facility always kind of made me want to know more about that character,
Also, I wanted more of
@ The Pretentious... "also i wanted more of..." LEAVE US HANGING, WILL YOU? (Joe & Katey will be back but since we're weekly now i cant guarantee who will be on each week since i'm not waiting around as i used to for everyone to be available)
@TB... this is why i love talking to Nick because he'll talk about movies in these extra ways! not just plot & performance but emotional and intellectual and moral POV, if you will. Also I wonder how many time "because UGH Jennifer Jones" has been uttered in the English language?
CMG -- thanks for sharing on Coen Bros turnaround (and i totally love everythign you're saying about Inception, too). As for Coen Bros... i think the Academy mirrors the world's reaction to them. The world came to them rather than them smoothing their edges for the world. It just took some acclimating.
@Evan -- i'm going to think about the parabolic relationship again so thanks for that.
@JamesT & @Raul -- James do not listen to Nick ;) ... listen to Raul and I. It's an awesome movie :)
I don't mean to make you self-concious Nathaniel, but I love the way you say Nick's Flick Picks. It's kind of adorable.
Fantastic podcast! It's awesome how committed you guys are to making this every week! I was psyched to hear you guys answered my question. And I absolutely loved Nick's entrance a la Kidman :)
I know it always sounds lame to back-pedal when you disagree with someone about a movie ("Maybe I was just tired," etc.), but I really do wonder if I ought to see Short Term 12 again when I'm feeling less fatigued at the end of a long workday. I think enough of my reservations will hold that I'll never be in the Nathaniel Place about it. Still, this conversation and the comments it has prompted do make me wonder if I'd like it more a second time, as do other love-letters posted around the web. I know Joe's a huge fan, too.
I liked the movie and appreciated most of the performances. Larson was believable and Keith Standfield gets that one big moment which is the most memorable to me. But everything related to the Kaitlyn Dever character rang false to me including her performance which I found sub-par and irritating.