Open Small Screen List Thread
Saturday, July 18, 2015 at 10:20PM Team Experience and I have been talking off blog about how better to handle TV coverage going forward. The disappointing Emmy nominations reminded us that while there's plenty of great work being done on TV, focusing on the Emmys turns out to be not even remotely the best way to honor it since they only have time for about 10 shows which they hang on to year after year. While we're never going to become The TV Experience (you need not worry movie-going cinephiles) nor will we be joining the traditional recapping game --- we experimented a bit but there's more than enough of that online and it wasn't really our thing -- but with the big screen / small screen / web screen lines are ever blurrier it's time to have at least a weekly column devoted to it.
Plus, the whole time I was watching Penny Dreadful Season 2, I was like 'Nathaniel, WHY are you not discussing this regularly with TFE readers? It's so gonzo and worth talking about!'
So our questions to you (yes even you who never comment - speak up) are:
1. What are your 10-15 favorite current shows that you (here's the key part of the question) most love to read about / discuss with others?
2. What are your 10 favorite shows of all time (that are no longer airing)?
3. Which shows that are not endlessly obsessed over online (like, say, Game of Thrones), should be?
Reader Comments (68)
Without thinking too much about it...
1. Broad City, Empire, Sense8, Orange is the New Black, Jane the Virgin, Agent Carter, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, The Americans, The Good Wife, How to Get Away with Murder, Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, Daredevil, Fresh Off the Boat, Veep, etc.
2. Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Lost, Breaking Bad, Battlestar Galactica, Rome, Firefly, Friends, Rome, Star Trek: Voyager, Parks & Recreation, etc.
3. Harder question to answer as most of the shows I'm interested in seem to have SOME online buzz either by fandom or by critics (or both)... but Shameless, Hannibal, and The Americans need to be more than critically acclaimed. I also don't get why Sense8 didn't make MORE of a splash relative to splashy Netflix shows.
Let's see now:
1. The Americans, The Leftovers, Orange is the New Black, Veep, Silicon Valley, Jane the Virgin, Mom, Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, The Middle, Better Call Saul (and I wasn't even that big on Breaking Bad, this one's different).
2. Mad Men (of course!), Frasier, ER, Friends, Friday Night Lights, Gilmore Girls, Everwood, The West Wing, The Sopranos, Six Feet Under.
3. This question is tougher, so I'll just second The Americans (with Mad Men off the air, it's my favorite drama currently on TV)...
So, writing this comment made me realize that I am really not a big TV watcher... there is a LOT that I haven't watched that I really ought to have by now. That said, here's what I could come up with (not always coming to your desired number). That said:
1. Orphan Black(!!!), Bates Motel, Daredevil, Better Call Saul, The Knick, Archer, Arrested Development (there's a season in the works, so I'm counting it), Brooklyn Nine-Nine, Black Mirror, Silicon Valley, Orange is the New Black. Last Man on Earth
2. Battlestar Galactica, Breaking Bad, Seinfeld, Firefly, Dollhouse, Fawlty Towers, Slings & Arrows, Caprica
3. Interesting question... my thought is that most shows - even my favourite ones for which I wish there was a larger following, either in terms of critical acclaim or viewership, a part of me just thinks that having endless obsession leads to total overthinking, which, to a point, can diminish the power of a show (that's not to say it always does, just that it can). With that in mind, the show that I love the most that I think could use/could have used more in depth analysis/obsession is a show like Slings & Arrows, which is, in my mind, a heavy drama hidden within a comedy (with nearly constant theatrical allusions). Quite fascinatingly/phenomenally written, in my opinion, and far too few people knew about that show
Afternote: in terms of modern/current shows, the one that could use the most obsession, Arrested Development is the one show that I think can never be TOO overthought
1. Orange is the New Black, Veep, Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, Inside Amy Schumer, Hannibal, Game of Thrones, Masters of Sex, The Leftovers, Silicon Valley, The Fall, The Americans, Penny Dreadful, Transparent, Daredevil, Girls
2. Mad Men, Twin Peaks, Seinfeld, The Wire, Pushing Daisies, Six Feet Under, Batman: The Animated Series, The Sopranos, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Breaking Bad,
3. The Comeback for recent/current TV, Pushing Daisies for old
1) Orphan Black, Agent Carter, Daredevil, Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, Brooklyn 99, Empire, unREAL, izombie, Archer
2) Buffy, Firefly, Battlestar Galactica, Veronica Mars, Friends, Friday Night Lights, Parks & Rec, Arrested Development, Lost, Sex & the City
3) I haven't heard or seen much about izombie, and it is such fun show. The lead actress is great, and it has a similar vibe to Veronica Mars (same creator)
1. orange is the new black, bob's burgers, rick and morty, last man on earth, rupaul's drag race, the cookie parts of empire, last week tonight with john oliver, fargo [and i'm sure i'll have many an opinion on the reboot of the muppets]
2. mad men
buffy the vampire slayer
[the first seven seasons of] the simpsons
freaks and geeks
the office [uk version]
arrested development
30 rock
parks and recreation
ab fab [seasons 1-3]
the muppet show
3. galavant, the comeback, rick and morty
1) Current shows: Rectify, Hannibal, Better Call Saul, Halt and Catch Fire, The Flash, Manhattan, The 100, The Americans, Fargo, True Detective, Silicon Valley
2) All timers: Star Trek: The Next Generation, Northern Exposure, Twin Peaks, The X Files, Seinfeld, Buffy, 24, Battlestar Galactica, Friday Night Lights, The Wire, Deadwood, Mad Men, Justified, Curb Your Enthusiasm
3) Rectify, which is just excruciatingly beautiful and haunting, and unlike anything I've seen on TV; and the 100, which quickly sloughed off its CW rags and has become maybe the best science fiction series since the Battlestar Galactica reboot.
Awesome. Great thing about TV is we can actually fully participate (unlike a lot of content which won't be released on DVD until another 6-10 months). In the spirit of that, try not to let the expensive tv channel shows (HBO, SHOWTIME, STARZ...etc.) that I cannot afford hog your TV coverage --> I really can't afford it! Also I just cancelled Netflix too.
1. What are your 10-15 favorite current shows that you (here's the key part of the question) most love to read about / discuss with others?
Of this list, I think #1, 2 & 5 would have the most interesting discussion here.
1. The Americans - FX
2. Fargo - FX
3. Agent Carter - ABC
4. The 100 - CW
5. Humans - AMC
6. The Walking Dead - AMC
7. Orphan Black - BBC
8. Flash - CW
9. Empire - FOX
10. Mr. Robot - USA
Ooh, how could I possibly forget Pushing Daisies (as an answer to both #2 and #3)?
1. The Americans, The Good Wife, You're The Worst, Jane The Virgin, Empire, Being Mary Jane, How To Get Away With Murder, Outlander, House Of Cards, The Affair, American Crime, Mr Robot, Please Like Me.
2. Alias, Brothers & Sisters, Queer As Folk, Oz, The West Wing, Will & Grace, Gilmore Girls, Southland, Dawson's Creek, Looking.
3. The Good Wife, I feel like people forget how good and consistent the writing is. Jane The Virgin, still underapreciated. Being Mary Jane, undiscovered gem with such a complex female lead. Mr Robot, my new crush.
I cannot imagine having 5 tv shows that I would watch at a given period of time, let alone 10 or 15. How many hours a week would that be? There are too many movies that I've never seen and would rather see instead, or do something else. The only non-reality show I'm watching right now is Wayward PInes (the premise seemed interesting and I wanted to see Juliette Lewis in it). The only non-reality show I watch now is SYTYCD.
Favorite shows of all-time in no particular order:
Six Feet Under
The Comeback
Twin Peaks
Freaks and Geeks
Wonder Years
Curb your Enthusiasm
Parks and Rec
The Office UK
Louie
I absolutely love the new show Mr. Robot on USA. I think it's probably the best new show since The Americans. It doesn't seem to get that much internet coverage (although I may be limiting myself to a few sites and thus unaware.)
Other shows in my top 10 include The Americans, Better Call Saul, Orange, GoT, Louis, Veep, Bloodlne, Empire.
I still think The Sopranos is the best show of all time. I still watch it often.
Twin Peaks is second.. I wonder how much its return will destroy the internet, although I'd love to see an actress-sexual take on here. Lynch loves beautiful actresses, no? I wonder who he'll add to the cast.
1. The Americans, Orange is the New Black, Rectify, Kimmy Schmidt, Jane the Virgin, Empire, The Good Wife, Veep, Masters of Sex, Homeland, The Affair
2. Mad Men, Arrested Development, Six Feet Under, Gilmore Girls, Parks and Rec, Friday Night Lights, My So-Called Life, I'll Fly Away, St. Elsewhere, Cheers, 30 Rock
3. Rectify
1-Park & Rec. x 15
2-Park & Rec. x 10
3-Park & Rec & Amy Poheler doesn't have an emmy & it's as embarrassing as Glenn Close not having an Oscar...
2. What are your 10 favorite shows of all time (that are no longer airing)?
Oh god I"m leaving some out but: Battlestar Galactica, Seinfeld, ROME, The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Firefly, Friday Night Lights, The Wire, 24 & Lost.
Oh...and Strangers with Candy!
Current TV Shows
1.The Americans 2.Penny Dreadful 3.The Leftovers 4.Masters of Sex 5.Agent Carter 6.Hannibal 7.Daredevil 8.Grace and Frankie 9.Sense8 10.Orange is the New Black
All Time Favorite TV Shows (no longer airing)
1.Buffy the Vampire Slayer 2.Will & Grace 3.Sex and the City 4.Mad Men 5.Friends 6.Oz 7.Desperate Housewives 8.Angel 9.Heroes 10.True Blood
Shows Not that much discussed
1.Buffy the Vampire Slayer
1. Unbreakable Kimmie Schmidt, Archer, OITNB, House of Cards, Bob's Burgers, RuPauls Drag Race, SNL, Daredevil, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, Frankie & Grace.
2. Golden Girls, Frasier, Twin Peaks, China Beach, Cheers, Will & Grace, The Love Boat, The Muppet Show, Queer as Folk.
I've been waiting for The Love Boat to be available for instant streaming just to see the steady stream of older great actresses who stepped on board The Pacific Princess.
1. The Good Wife, Masters of Sex, Getting On, Orphan Black, Jane The Virgin, Sense 8, The Americans, Archer, Inside Amy Schumer & Parks and Recreations.
2. Gilmore Girls, Battlestar Galactica, Six Feet Under, Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Will & Grace, Sports Night, I Love Lucy, Jewel In The Palace, Bunheads (RIP) & The Wire
3. Gilmore Girls
Never miss an episode: Agent Carter, Orphan Black
Seen many episodes, caught up with the story: Younger, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, The Flash, Archer, How to Get Away With Murder, Miss Fisher's Mysteries
Currently watching: the summer replacements for Orphan Black, Killjoys and Dark Matter; So You Think You Can Dance.
1. Orphan Black, iZombie, Kimmy Schmidt, OITNB
2. Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Veronica Mars, Alias, The X-Files, 30 Rock, Parks and Recreation, Roswell, Friends, Arrested Development, Lost.
3. Kimmy Schmidt and iZombie
1. Loving/looking forward to more Hannibal (Fuller!), Penny Dreadful, Veep, Daredevil, Silicon Valley, Arrested Development (to borrow some of Rob's optimism). Also watching Halt and Catch Fire, Masters of Sex, Fresh Off the Boat. Planning on starting Rectify, Fargo. Finishing Mad Men.
2. Twin Peaks, Pushing Daisies, Firefly, Freaks and Geeks, Seinfeld, Parks and Rec, Northern Exposure, X-Files, Flight of the Conchords, Utopia (UK)
3. Not worried about TV coverage eclipsing film coverage on my favorite site except when it comes to reality shows/competitions, which seem notably off-topic here, however great they may be.
1. House of Cards, Orange is the New Black, The Americans, Homeland, Better Call Saul, New Girl, Louie, Game of Thrones, Transparent, Girls, Outlander
2. Breaking Bad, Lost, Friday Night Lights, Mad Men, Parks and Recreation, The Wire, Enlightened, The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, Boy Meets World, Full House
3. THE AMERICANS
1. The Walking Dead, The Comeback, Modern Family (looking at everyone else, I feel like the only one!) The Goldbergs, House of Cards, Kimmy Schmidt S., America's Next Top Model, OITNB, Veep, Mad Men
2. Six Feet Under, The Simpsons, X-Men the Animated Series, Drawn Together, Everybody Loves Raymond, Top Model, Frasier, Celebrity Deathmatch, Daria, Heroes
3. I have yet to see a single episode of Game of Thrones. I KNOW. Someday, maybe when it's all over.
1. Orange is the New Black, Penny Dreadful, American Horror Story, Drag Race, Empire, Jane the Virgin, Agent Carter, Transparent Orphan Black, Outlander, Doctor Who (i know, i'm one of *those*), Wentworth (AUS) and Last Tango in Halifax (UK). I also really love Broad City and Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt but I don't know how "discussable" they are; I mainly like to celebrate them via gifs.
2. BATTLESTAR GALACTICA. 30 Rock, Parks and Rec, True Blood, X-Files (although who knows how I'll feel come next year). Golden Girls, and....well my favorite show as a kid was The Munsters, in the 90s no less. A lot of the shows that I liked as a teenager seem pretty questionable now so I can't think of many good answers for this.
3. Jane and Agent Carter can always be talked about more. I also have a mighty need for more people to watch Wentworth (the first 2 seasons of 3 are on Netflix) solely so I can talk to them about it.
1. The Good Wife, Masters of Sex, Orange is the New Black, House of Cards, Penny Dreadful, The Leftovers, Mom, Empire, Veep, Silicon Valley,
2. Mad Men, Six Feet Under, Sex and the City, ER, In Treatment, Enlightened, Friends, Looking, Ally McBeal, The Golden Girls.
3. Getting On, The Knick, The Good Wife
Mad Men aside, I am not crazy about TV, but I'd love to read your point of view on The Americans.
Hmm at first glance I'd say...
1. Favorite comedies: Broad City; Veep; Archer; Bob's Burgers; Silicon Valley; Jane the Virgin; Brooklyn Nine-Nine; Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt; Review; Louie.
Favorite dramas: The Americans; Masters of Sex; Hannibal; Rectify; The Good Wife; Fargo; The Leftovers; Orphan Black; Game of Thrones; Orange is the new Black.
2. Six Feet Under. Mad Men. The Sopranos. The Shield. The Wire.
30 Rock. Cheers. Parks & Rec. Friends. Friday Night Lights.
3. THE AMERICANS. BOB'S BURGERS. LOUIE. ORPHAN BLACK. THE GOOD WIFE.
The current shows are tough-I don't really watch much regularly I have the unfortunate knack of falling for shows, this year it was Forever, that only last a year. If I have free time I usually watch TCM but I do watch Brooklyn Nine-Nine, Downton Abbey, Call the Midwife and Miss Fisher Murder Mysteries.
Older shows-Golden Girls, The Big Valley, Friends, Here Come the Brides, It Takes a Thief, Firefly, The Nanny, Moonlighting, Wiseguy and The Mrs. Bradley Mysteries.
I have no idea about the third question.
Glad to see lots of fans of THE AMERICANS popping up in here. Also I completely forgot about MR. ROBOT, but it IS a new show and it's only been 4 episodes. That said, yeah, it's great.
1. I don't follow 10 shows, but: Black-ish, Orange Is the New Black, Kimmie Schmidt, Daredevil, American Horror Story (despite myself), Sherlock, Doctor Who, The New Girl
2. MARY TYLER MOORE SHOW, Star Trek: The Next Generation, ST: Deep Space Nine, ST: Voyager, Battlestar Galactica, Batman '66, I Love Lucy, Dick Van Dyke Show, Homicide: Life on the Streets,... The X-Files?
3. I hope the Internet has the sense to obsess over the Muppets when the new show debuts.
1. Penny Dreadful, The Americans, Archer, Game of Thrones, Transparent, Louie, Masters of Sex, The Leftovers, American Crime, Blackish, The Affair, The Walking Dead, Orphan Black, The Good Wife, Better Call Saul.
2. Cannot answer.
3. Penny Dreadful, Blackish, Rectify (even though it's not on my top 15 list)
1.
2.
3. You're The Worst.
1. Survivor, Arrested Development, Game of Thrones, Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, Hannibal, Sherlock, Agent Carter, Silicon Valley, Playing House, Amazing Race Canada, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, Gravity Falls
2. Survivor, Buffy, Scrubs, Futurama, Parks and Recreation, Twin Peaks, Breaking Bad, Legend of Korra, Arrested Development, Extras
3. Playing House, UnREAL, Outlander, Gravity Falls
1) The Good Wife, Sense8, Game of Thrones, Daredevil, Orange is the New Black, Bob's Burgers, Big Brother (don't judge me), Empire
2) The Wire, Oz, Six Feet Under, Pushing Daisies, The O,C (first show i was ever truly obsessed with), Smash (Megan Hilty + Bombshell), The Golden Girls, Frasier, Friends (oddly enough AFTER it aired), Desperate Housewives (i miss that show), Rome
3) You're The Worst is a hidden gem but Sense8 not being renewed is a tragedy.
I think FARGO would be a great one because the new season will be its own standalone story with new characters, the first season was bloody brilliant and Dunst definitely has a fan base here.
Without thinking super hard:
1. Survivor, Penny Dreadful, Big Brother, Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, Orange is the New Black, Veep, Girls, RuPaul's Drag Race, Empire, Transparent, Grace & Frankie, Bob's Burgers....
2. Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Will & Grace, Roseanne, Friends, Pushing Daisies, Looking, Parks and Recreation, The Golden Girls, Nurse Jackie, 30 Rock...
3. I'm not exactly sure what has and what doesn't have a huge internet following, but I'd say Penny Dreadful, Looking, Pushing Daisies
I don't watch much TV drama or comedy at the moment. I struggle to find the time to watch much, because I tend to watch films and read books instead as those are, on balance, more important to me as things stand.
When I was a kid/teenager, though, I watched more TV. Ten favourite shows (all from that period) are: Dallas, Dynasty, Blackadder, Fawlty Towers, Star Trek: The Next Generation, Mr. Benn, Huckleberry Finn and His Friends, The A-Team, Knight Rider and thirtysomething.
Anyway, all of this is to say that I support The Film Experience delving a bit more into TV. TV is, of course, going through a period of major and widespread achievement at the moment and I'd enjoy reading some more about it here. And it may even encourage me to give one of the current shows more of a go!
I'm afraid I'm not much better than your typical Emmy voter. Completely hopeless when it comes to TV. That being said, I do plan on watching The Comeback within the near future, and feel ridiculous for not making time to try How to Get Away With Murder because Viola.
I'll answer the questions anyway, though:
1. Adventure Time, Archer, and Bob's Burgers are three of the best animated programs in years; Inside Amy Schumer and Louie are consistently hilarious and a great springboard for two of the most singular comic voices working today; Black-ish and The Goldbergs, whatever their flaws, are funnier, more thoughtful sitcom alternatives to Modern Family; the seasons I have seen of Girls and Veep make me miss having HBO; and last but not least, Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt was one of the most pleasant surprises I've had all year and made me realize how empty my life has felt without 30 Rock in my life.
2. Looking, Mad Men, and Parks & Rec. for shows I love that just ended/were cancelled. 30 Rock, Bunheads, Firefly, Freaks & Geeks, GIlmore Girls, The Golden Girls, and The Wire to make an even 10.
3. Not sure about this one, but I don't get the Game of Thrones obsession at. all. If it was as interesting as everyone says it is you'd think people would find more to talk about other than which character was brutally raped or murdered on an episode. Pretty much any show that isn't GoT or The Walking Dead would be a nice change of pace for me.
1. Orphan Black, Wayward Pines, The Comeback, Orange is the New Black, The Walking Dead, Parks and Recreation, American Horror Story, Agent Carter, Masters of Sex, Getting On, The Good Wife
2. 30 Rock, Community, The Mary Tyler Moore Show, Breaking Bad, The Golden Girls, Happy Endings, Soap, It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia, Friday Night Lights, Chuck, Tiny Toon Adventures, Taxi, Will & Grace, Arrested Development, Tracey Takes On...
1. Game of Thrones, Rick and Morty, Aqua Teen Hunger Force, Sense8, Archer, Bob's Burgers, Orange Is the New Black, Black Mirror, Orphan Black. I otherwise don't watch that much television (True Detective never hit me as a favorite even though I liked season 1, I do enjoy It's Always Sunny, Kimmy Schmidt was aight, I'm mixed on BoJack Horseman and I still need to start Rectify, Bloodline, and Fargo). Anybody got any other recommendations?
2. Twin Peaks, Star Trek, Arrested Development, The Wire, The X-Files, Deadwood, Cowboy Bebop, Paranoia Agent, Firefly, Batman: The Animated Series (plus I wanna give a wink to Star Trek: TNG, The Sopranos, '03 Battlestar Galactica, Cosmos, Neon Genesis Evangelion, and Veronica Mars)
3. Don't know about shows airing today (since I largely just go by whatever in the pulse keeps me relevant, but Tales from the Crypt doesn't get discussed nearly as much as I think it should. The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr. is also such a precious little "le hidden gem". I also feel everything people say about Joss Whedon - all that praise - deserves to be given to Bryan Fuller.
PAR ---
I love you.1. I've been watching very little television lately, but Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, Transparent and Veep are my favorites.
2. Mad Men, Simpsons, Deadwood, Freaks and Geeks, Bunheads, Newsradio
3. Not enough people talked about the masterpiece that was Cartoon Network's miniseries Over the Garden Wall.
I was raving "Outlander" to the high heavens until those final two episodes. Homophobia and rape fantasy are not okay with me.
1) The Walking Dead, Bates Motel, True Detective, Game of Thrones, Under the Dome, Big Brother, Survivor, American Horror Story, Wayward Pines, The Bachelor/The Bachelorette., The Simpsons, Agent Carter
2) Lost, Charlie's Angels, Starsky & Hutch, Dynasty, Cheers, Roseanne, Sex and the City, Looking, Magnum P I, Moonlighting, Seinfeld, Parenthood, The Love Boat, Fantasy Island, Taxi, Will & Grace, The Brady Bunch, Scooby Doo, The Facts of Life, Family Ties, Mad Men, Three's Company, Frasier, Mary Tyler Moore, M*A*S*H, Laverne & Shirley, The Twilight Zone.
I've watched a lot of television.
For the Actress sexual angle, "Mary Tyler Moore" might be one of the best examples, as that show was right on the edge of the changing tides for women in the work place and in the dating world.
Oh, I forgot Girls! I deserve to be punished (by Adam Driver preferably)
Like a tiny few here, I don't watch a lot of TV either, since there are way too many films I haven't seen that could take up that time. Oddly, I read your TV coverage anyway, especially if it's about a series in its first or second season. (I watched Empire entirely because of mentions on TFE; the nod for Taraji and just about nothing else seemed exactly right.)
I'll be on the lookout to read anything relating to a new(ish) series that needs more attention, if only because that seems to be where Emmy needs some guidance.
"Penny Dreadful" should be more popular than it is- a gorgeous production, terrifying villains, a classic horror film fan feast.
Love this.
1) The Americans, The Good Wife, Hannibal, Switched At Birth, Orange is the New Black, Broad City, Transparent, Rectify, The Mindy Project, You're The Worst, Louie, Community (it's not technically cancelled yet), The Fosters (all parts not concerning Brandon), unREAL.
2) Mad Men, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Friday Night Lights, Enlightened, ER, Alias (S1-3), The Comeback, Battlestar Galactica (S1-3), Twin Peaks, Dollhouse.
3) Shows not that discussed...well, it's impossible to cover everything, but being British, there are a few really great shows that didn't get much coverage. Happy Valley last year springs to mind, which probably had my favourite performance of last year in Sarah Lancashire. I'm always sad when shows go off the boil and we hear less about them. Shows like GoT and Mad Men, which still inspire so much conversation, are rare. I'd have loved, for example, to have heard more conversation about BSG's very messy but interesting final season. Similarly shows that don't fit into either the prestige camp, or the phenomenon camp like Empire, stuff like Spartacus, Switched At Birth, or Alias. Although I suppose these are mostly historic examples...