Q&A: TV Queens, Musical Divas, and Bad Work by Great Actors
Monday, March 16, 2015 at 9:38PM Time for more Reader Questions. Thanks for asking them. Only six this time and they're nearly all actressy (next week something differentd) but the answers are lengthy.
TROY: A performance by an actress in television -- either episodic, movie, or miniseries -- that could stand alongside the best of the best work of Oscar-winning divas.
NATHANIEL: This is an unfair question since the reason people have such affection for television performances from the miraculously good ones to the just competents ones is that the actor in question has had literally hours and hours of time to develop that character and the viewer has had hours, months and sometimes even years in which to fall in love with the role itself (and sometimes the actor, too). Different mediums, agendas, ways of becoming iconic. Apples / Oranges. But of TV-centric actresses that repeatedly deliver A grade awards-quality work no matter the show or character they're working with (an important distinction) my vote for the best television actresses ever are Julia Louis-Dreyfus and Edie Falco... Claire Danes for the bronze should she add a third performance as impressive as Angela Chase and Carrie Mathison to her series-ography (wait what do you call a television resume?).
Three final notes on this TV actress question. Movies no longer really have an equivalent to the kind of broad near slapstick comedy that TV often specializes in but literally no one makes me laugh harder than Jane Krakowski (Ally McBeal / 30 Rock / Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt) and I have a rage stroke every time I remember that she's Emmy-less. Three recent singular TV performances I think of all the time for hitting every possible pleasure spot in terms of delivering both great actressing and nuanced TV characterizations without ever starting to feel stale (the danger of long term work) are Connie Britton in Friday Night Lights, and Elisabeth Moss and Christina Hendricks from Mad Men.
Finally, though I know it's not a popular opinion critically speaking (even though the show is historically very popular) I absolutely proclaim Sarah Jessica Parker a true genius for her work on Sex & the City. Gee-nee-us. Like Meg Ryan / Julia Roberts / Sandra Bullock / Goldie Hawn at their peaks rom-com perfection but for the small screen. 'Your girl is lovely, Hubble Sarah.'
BENJI: What is your favorite silent movie/star+performance?
Diary of a Lost Girl (1929)
NATHANIEL: Maria Falconetti is unforgettable in The Passion of Joan of Arc (1928) which I'd also call the best of the silents. But... Best is different than Favorite. And that masterpiece has a kind of fetishized suffering, like a Von Trier without the childish pranking, that you really have to be in the right mood for. So the truer answer to your question is Louise Brooks in Pandora's Box (1929). That's my favorite silent ever (which is saying a lot because I love so many of the ones I've seen) and I also think she's great in Diary of a Lost Girl... though that movie isn't quite at her level the way her best known film is. I love all the usual stars (Gish, Garbo, Valentino) but it's Brooks that does it for me the most.
Laika: Hollywood is calling. They NEED YOUR ADVICE. They are making an Avengers -style superhero-teamup film about the divas of musical theatre, but they are having difficulty casting key roles: Liza Minnelli. Carol Channing. Elaine Stritch. Ethel Merman. BARBRA. Some people are pushing to cast Blake Lively as Bernadette Peters! Who could they cast as these inimitable women?!
KENDRICK. MCDONALD. STREISAND. KRAKOWSKI. MACLAINE. CHENOWETH. MINNELLI. FOSTER. PETERS
Only the originals will do. So think Expendables instead but with the budget and the quality of a Marvel Studios film like The Avengers. I've mocked up a dream cast list but perhaps you have different ideas?
Half of the budget is for the lawyers because trying to decide who gets top billing would be A NIGHTMARE. Maybe you can try to decide who gets top billing in the comments, but I fear the wrath of all of them if I place them in order.
TD: Least favorite performances by favorite actors?
NATHANIEL: This topic probably deserves a whole big post but then we'd have to dwell in disappointment and who needs that? So let's just throw a quick list out there. Let's start with a few actors that are actressy according to Nathaniel (i.e. great / obsession worthy). I don't really get what Fassbender in Dangerous Method or Jude in Contagion were going for or I do but I don't like it. Jeff Bridges has been phoning it in since the Oscar win which is a shame. Okay enough men. The women.
Hathaway is bad in Eyesore in Wonderland (but, then, who isn't? I mean, besides HBC). Streep is terrible in The Manchurian Candidate, overplaying everything. Chastain in Miss Julie, same thing. Too much too much. Modulate girl, you're so good at that in other films. I didn't understand what the hell was going on with La Pfeiffer in Up Close and Personal, did you? In regards to my idol, I praised her at the time as an obsessed fan, but I must accept in retrospect that her double 1999 star turn in The Deep End of the Ocean and The Story of Us (which I always think of together) are, like Streep's in Doubt, a strange mix of irritatingly off key and really great. Whenever that happens I wonder if the star is distracted by something we'll never know about on set or at home or in their heads... or if it's director or production problems that have worked their way into the editing bay.
Julianne Moore? Hmmm. Well, actually take a look at this image.
I meant to share this chart a few months ago when I first looked at it. This is a table of the biggest box office hits of Julianne Moore's career. Looking at it I suddenly realized why non-fans have sometimes had bizarre notions about the level of her talent. If all someone had seen was a handful of these and that handful didn't include both The Hours & Boogie Nights the casual moviegoer may have regarded either as flukes and been reasonably been misled into thinking that she wasn't that special and not understood the fuss. Not that she's bad in these movies but Julianne is a Kidman in the way that her best work is almost always in the most complicated and weirdest movies. i.e. the ones people have to be convinced to see either by nominations for awards or critics never shutting up about them. I've only thought Julianne was actively bad a few times. Let us never speak of Freedomland or Evolution or that scene in Laws of Attraction where she eats junk food again. Don't Speak!
BRIAN: How do you feel about the word pretentious when used by film critics?
NATHANIEL: I hate it. Charitably it only means 'I don't like this person's ambitions,' whatever they may be. Uncharitably it can mean "I didn't understand this movie." It's as useless as the word "unforgettable" in film reviews. Real talk, film critics: We know you JUST walked out of that movie and are writing this for publication deadline tonight or tomorrow. Half the movies in existence are unforgettable for at least a good half hour after watching them. Save that word for a few months later at least so that it means something.
DANIEL: Did the work of Hilary Swank in The Homesman make you appreciate her more as an actress, or is she still hand in hand with Renée Zelwegger in your nemesis path? In terms of career which do you prefer ? Love from Brazil...
NATHANIEL: Big love right back at Brazil. The site has always had a big following in Brazil -- not sure why that is apart from Brazilians being awesome.
I made kind of a big deal about these two as my nemeses (I know some people think it's childish but it's like an internal barometer corrector since I'm The Man Who Loved Actresses Too Much.) but I don't deny their gifts. There are actresses I think are far less talented than either Hilary or Renee that are famous but they don't annoy me as much, largely I think because they don't appear in the type of films I am otherwise drawn to. I was actually a huge fan of Renée's from Jerry Maguire (1996) through Bridget Jones (2001) but irreconciliable differences; we had a brutal divorce soon thereafter.
I've never been a "fan" of Swank but I think she's just great in Boys Don't Cry (I have eyes) and she really is very good in The Homesman (2014), which I'd easily call her second best. Even in scenes that don't directly address it, unlike that touching faux-piano scene which does, she just comes across as ineffably sad but determined to march on. I think she could have made a real run for a nomination if the reviews had been better and if it had been a more straightforward film about her character rather than the shapeshifter movie that it was.
Please chime in on my responses or with your own in the comments.
Reader Comments (42)
Thanks for responding back to my question. I'm so glad you mentioned Streep in Manchurian because, GOD, is she bad in that. It too me forever to watch it, and when I did I just tuned out the whole time because almost everything about it was insufferable.
Never really commented or been a part of the conversation on this blog, but I love your work and everything about it! Thanks for all your hard work.
Great questions. The TV actresses question in a miniseries or TV movie brought to mind two performers from years ago that are amazing, especially within the confines of network television which is where they were shown. The first is Jane Seymour as Catherine/Cathy/Kate in the 80's mini East of Eden, she was astonishing. The other is the late, lamented Elizabeth Montgomery who was great in many of her projects outside of Bewitched but particularly laudable in A Case of Rape and The Legend of Lizzie Borden.
Louise Brooks is so great in Pandora's Box but I would go with Lillian Gish in The Wind for best actress and Lon Chaney in The Unknown for best actor performance in a silent.
Hoping for a miracle win for Krakowski for The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt
Hilary Swank would be less disliked had she not won a second Oscar. Those things are reputation killers if the nominee in question is a one performance wonder.
As a budding future lawyer, I'll give it a shot.
Barbra STREISAND Liza MINELLI
DIVAS
Kristen CHENOWETH
Sutton FOSTER
Anna KENDRICK
Jane KRAKOWSKI
Audra McDONALD
with
Bernadette PETERS
and
Shirley MACLAINE
It feels sort of okay? Regardless of billing, I would watch the HELL out of that movie.
Thanks for answering my question, Nathaniel (more like honoring my request, actually).
I thought La Pfeiffer was excellent in Up Close and Personal...natural, unbidden and charismatic. As for Julianne Moore, I truly won't brand her as GOD...there are at least 2 or 3 dozen actresses I would give that title to (Huppert, Blanchett, etc.). But she does give me the high on movies like The Hours , Far from Heaven and Single Man and I'm thrilled she won that Oscar (she was simply awful in Hannibal!). As for TV actresses, you hit it on the nail...I really like your assessment and the way you extol Sarah Jessica Parker in Sex and City.
Julianne was pretty bad in "Next" too.
I had forgotten that Moore appeared in half of her biggest box office hits. Most of my friends know her for The Big Lebowski, which apparently didn't do stellar box office but has had an enviable afterlife as a cultural phenomenon.
Do you fawn over any older TV actresses? I ask because although I love Louis-Dreyfus and Parker, I would put them somewhere behind Lucille Ball, Mary Tyler Moore, and maybe Candace Bergen.
(I'm imagining a specific kind of plot here.)
Sutton FOSTER Anna KENDRICK Audra McDONALD
DIVAS
Kristen CHENOWETH
Jane KRAKOWSKI
Shirley MACLAINE
Bernadette PETERS
with a special appearance by
Liza MINELLI
and
Barbra STREISAND
(There better be uncredited cameos from Channing, Lansbury, Lupone and Donna Murphy.)
Where are Chita Rivera and Rita Moreno? (A little (or a lot) of Lilias White would be nice too.) No Elaine Paige? No Betty Buckley? No JULIE ANDREWS?????? And where the freaking hell is Patti LuPone? This is turning out to be the Crash of musicals................
And the only way billing works is alphabetical or there will be blood.
Henry, I also thought of Buckley and White, along with Marin Mazzie and Kelli O'Hara.
I've never entirely gotten the hate for Swank. Her filmography is littered with fine to good performances with periodic bursts of wonderfulness. The disdain that tends to be directed her way is just plain odd..
"But of TV-centric actresses that repeatedly deliver A grade awards-quality work no matter the show or character they're working with (an important distinction) my vote for the best television actresses ever are .."
Due to the long running nature of television, that criteria really cuts down the competition. BUT I agree, Edie and Julia would be the winners under this criteria.
I'm completely baffled by your reaction to Chastain in Miss Julie. I think it's her best work. She's like Tilda-great in it. Theatrical for sure, but it's a well-modulated theatricality and it works in tandem with the camera. I felt like I was under her skin the whole time. Her intensity was so galvanising and she made Miss Julie a coherent character even from a contemporary context, which I would've assumed to be impossible.
I actually didn't think she'd have it in her - because though I've always liked her and her chameleon efforts, I've never been quite blown away, apart from individual scenes. In Miss Julie I was blown away and then some. I was dying to see what she would come up with next.
Then I saw Most Violent Year and was a little let down, alas. There she goes a bit hard with the ketchup - not that she's bad, just a little at sea. And I blame the writing a lot for that - she was working with bits of a character, not really a whole one. Anyway, that's off-topic.
Otherwise I'm totally with you re. Falconetti, Brooks, Krakowski, Louis-Dreyfuss, and I guess, Parker too. She never really demonstrated range (and she's TV least convincing cryer) but that's beside the point - she was fantastic in that role. I'm not necessarily a huge fan of hers in general, or even that show, but it's glaringly obvious most of the hatred directed at her - and to a large extent, her show - is a matter of mysogyny.
Mysogyny is in danger of becoming a slightly overused word. Just like Pretentious. But if you use each of these words correctly and in the right context, with supporting arguments, they're actually extremely useful. Much more so than their reputation would suggest.
eg. Terrence Malick isn't pretentious - he is ambitious and singular and authentically, non-egotistically, non-pretendingly feeling his way towards a cinema language that's all his own. If only more directors did that. Not spoon-feeding an audience doesn't mean someone is being pretentious. Usually it means the opposite: A director is refusing to play safe and broad.
On the other hand, Inarritu can be pretentious because he often pitches his films (like Babel and Biutiful and kinda-sorta 21 Grams, NOT Birdman!) in a lofty tone that isn't warranted by the general lack of insight. 'We are all randomly connected' is not profound insight worthy of a slow pace, protracted silences and hours of earnest frowning.
So there you go. Pretentious. It's really a great word if you're not being lazy about it.
A vote here for Allison Janney in the list of (primarily) TV actresses who make the Oscar grade almost every time. She's wonderful in the movies too of course, but hasn't really graduated beyond minor supporting roles there, in comparison to the major, award-winning range she has demonstrated in her small-screen career. There can never be enough Allison Janney.
Julianne, also known as God, has done tones of shit. Tones. But she never stopped working and now she's an Oscar winner. Ladies, don't take long breaks or you''l be forgotten.
I’d agree with all these Julianne Moore choices, although every now and then she’ll throw in a reasonably committed performance in otherwise throwaway films like The Forgotten, and she’s very game in Non-Stop. But, yes, she’s just dreadful in Evolution and Rules of Attraction. Other performances by favourite actors that I don’t love, Nicole Kidman is a repeat offender, but that’s because she’s often cast so poorly.
With comparing TV performances to film performances, maybe it’s easiest to think in terms of strong arcs very well performed. I realise that’s not an exact science, but Gloria Reubens’ performance on ER after her character discovers she is HIV-positive just hits all the right marks. Similarly, Connie Britton, Zach Gilford and Michael B. Jordan all had short, specific story arcs in Friday Night Lights’ fourth season. But it’s a very inexact science, and doesn’t take in the cumulative effect of all those great performances on Mad Men, the instant iconography of a Buffy Summers or a Veronica Mars, or a performance that took a while to really come into its own like Julianna Margulies on The Good Wife, or Anna Torv on Fringe.
Since Sutton Foster, Renee Zellweger and Kimmy Schmidt get mentioned in the Q&A, can I just say that Ellie Kemper looks like a combination of Sutton (voice/delivery) and Renee (expressions) on screen.
Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh guuuuurl... Heads are gonna roll if Patti LuPone ever sees she's not on that cast list!
Denny - i was pleasantly surprised to discover how many options there were... this really needs its own post but since people aren't commenting that much maybe the musical theater queens haven't noticed it (sigh).
if we did one honorary male theater diva for the movie it would surely be Alan Cumming. but so many women would work: JULIE ANDREWS, CAROL CHANNING, DEBBIE REYNOLDS, PATTI LUPONE, DORIS DAY (not that she's ever going to show her face for the movie camera again. such a recluse!) ANNE HATHAWAY, MEGAN HILTY, IDINA MENZEL, LEA MICHELE, TONI COLLETTE, CATHERINE ZETA JONES, and yes even that uncastable MERYL STREEP ;)
Cicely Tyson in " The Autobiography of Miss Jane Pittman" has a bigger significance than the greatest of the Oscars winning performances (I've seen) to me.
the critical word i hate from film critics and film goers is half assed. Usually its more from film goers actually but when someone says that I immediately lose respect for the tastes or opinion. Having worked on films there is nothing half assed about them. Even the worst ones. But when it really annoyed me was when someone in my film crew in college said they felt both Raging Bull, There Will Be Blood and The Wrestler were half assed. First of all didn't like the person since. Felt thinking that is a pretentious thought. Like they could write or direct those films. That has to be moment when I completely soured on the word
After seeing the Last Five Years, I sadly fell off the Kendrick train. She doesn't do it for me in terms of musical theater, the way Sutton Foster, Megan Hilty, and LAURA BENANTI do. Speaking of Laura, her recent nonmusical guest star in The Good Wife was hilarious. Plus she's beautiful and funny as hell.
Actresses I love who were awfully bad: Glenn Close and Meryl Streep in The House of the Spirits. In fact the whole cast was awful, in an awful film adaptation of a fantastic novel. I can't remember being more disappointed. And Julie Andrews in S.O.B.--ugh.
Oh Nathaniel it's SO TRUE. You could also add: Christine Baranski, Laura Benanti, Rita Moreno, Donna Murphy, Carol Burnett, Diahann Carroll, Ann Reinking, Faith Prince, Donna Murphy, Bebe Neuwirth, Blythe Danner/Gwyneth Paltrow, Vanessa Williams, Debbie Allen... the list goes on and on. And this doesn't even cover those with heretofore unseen/unheard singing talents!
Nathaniel, I purposely left Streep (and Megan Mullally) off my additions to the musical theater divas list to avoid controversy. ;-)
Thank for answering my question, Nathaniel! I'm trying to discover more performances by actresses in silents, but so far have to agree that Brooks, Gish and Garbo stand out (with Falconetti in her own category).
Thank You for answering my question, Nathaniel. And Brazilians love you because YOU are GREAT! xoxo Dan
I LOVE Meryl in TMC. It's such a guilty pleasure.
Sure she overplayed it and Lansbury's performance is untouchable. Meryl knew that, that's why she overplayed her so much I'm sure.
The bathroom scene's so creepy....
It's the most evil role she has ever played. Even Violet Weston is kind of normal to that Monster named Eleanor Prentis-Shaw.
I wanted to be the ice cube she's crunching...
Donna McKechnie, Priscilla Lopez, Kelly Bishop, Jennifer Holiday, Lea Salonga, Lonette McKee, Elaine Stritch????? Madeline Kahn, Joanna Gleason, Vanessa Williams................
Least favourite performances from favourite actors? Well, one that's completely easy is John Cusack in War, Inc. A pathetic attempt at recapturing old glory (specifically, Grosse Pointe Blank), with profoundly dispiriting results. He has, since, gone in for alternating between pay check jobs and (Lee Daniels The Butler excepted, where the only real reason to find that "bad" is if you demand biopic jobs be mimic work) mostly badly judged attempts at stretching.
Elaine and Madeline are gone, Henry, so they can't be THE EXPENDABLE DIVAS...
Hollywood has never really been that interested in the actual divas of musical THEATER, otherwise Patti and Bernadette (or Ethel before them) would have had more impressive film resumes. So there's no real reason to imagine that in a film whose plot revolves around Broadway divas, Hollywood would cast actual theater divas. I think the movie would focus on the tried and true film Divas, i.e., FILM actresses who sing.
BARBRA STREISAND
LIZA MINNELLI
DIANA ROSS (underrated and underutilized)
CHER (it's interesting how so few of her films actually use her skills as a singer)
and FEATURING
JULIE ANDREWS (Julie can no longer sing so maybe that could make for an interesting plot point)
In terms of top billing for the movie with and about musical divas, how about reserving it only for those DIVAS who are so famous that the world recognizes them with just one word?
L C
I H
Z E
B A R B R A
E R
Y E
O T
N H
C A
E
davide -- clever typography there but you forget MADONNA
I love Pfeiffer in "The Deep End of the Ocean" unabashedly. Her and Cecilia Roth for "All About My Mother" topped by 1999 Best Actress ballot. And thank you for singling out Connie Britton in "Friday Night Lights," who is truly spectacular and so lived-in as Tami Taylor.
Don't hate me, but I actually loved Julianne Moore in Freedomland. I can see where people might not like the histrionics she gives in to in the performance, but I thought she nailed it. That monologue she gives at the end of the film as well, really got to me.
I would also like to single out Edie Falco for her performance in that film, which is also just great. The scene where she tells Moore's character about her own missing child case, was just brilliant.
I think i'll be indebted to Claire Danes for the rest of my life for her consistently amazing performance on Homeland. Every week I am just in awe of what she is able to do.
I really need to watch My So Called Life now!
"When Bad Performances Happen to Good Actors":
1. Christian Bale in Terminator Salvation
2. Sean Penn in Shanghai Surprise
3. Meryl Streep in The House of the Spirits
(or "When Bad Movies Movies Happen to Good Actors")
I've got to disagree with the Meryl/"The Manchurian Candidate" assessment, sure she's putting in a fulsome performance but it's a story about global conspiracy, mind control and incest and I think the "Written on the Wind"-esque acting choices vibe well with that. Why the rest of the cast (with the exception of Liev Schreiber) seems to be going for restraint and respectability is what I don't get and find outputting.
Also how anyone could choose anything other than her absolutely inert turn in the God-awful mess "The Iron Lady" as Streep's low point I can't understand.
A Divas of Musical Theater movie without Patti Lupone? I know she's probably anti-ensemble, but she'd burn the studio down before letting it go on without her.
(Also, I didn't even know Krakowski did musical theater. Apparently, she has quite a stageography, but I don't know that she's quite in the same league as the others. Shirley MacLaine also made me raise some eyebrows. Love her, but...)
@Evan, check out Krakowski in Nine. (You can find a clip on YouTube of her singing 'A Call from the Vatican' where she hits an E-flat...upside dow!) She really brings down the house in that one!
Also, I really don't care much for Lupone, who's extraordinarily talented, sure, but also doesn't modulate well -- at all. (I saw her in Company with Neil Patrick Harris at Lincoln Center, and she was straight-up bad in the part Elaine Stritch made famous. This isn't the first time either.)
Anyway, Betty Buckley! Anika Noni Rose!
Joanne Woodward began to make made for TV films later in her career and was Emmy-Globe-SAG nominated many times. Of those, I still prefer her work as an Alzheimer's patient in "Do You Remember Love" to those later done in Oscar nodded performances from Christie, Dench and Moore (all three fine).