Scorsese's Women. Scorsese's Best.
Saturday, December 28, 2013 at 7:18PM There are times when Margot Robbie's beauty feels so glossy and airbrushed in The Wolf of Wall Street that she feels almost CGIed in. But, as previously mentioned, Robbie seems to have shaken off whatever dullness once clung to that considerable if generic Barbie Doll beauty. Her Naomi LaPaglia is a hungry performance. It's not just Jordan Belfort that'll be opening the wallet and offering her everything, but Hollywood proper. Expect her to be rumored for every role in her age bracket in 3...2...1...
Scorsese has a long history of vivid supporting women in his movies. And yet, the women in his movies trouble me. They often pop but that isn't necessarily a tough assignment for a beautiful woman to clear, especially when she's the sole woman in a sea of somewhat interchangeable men, the men often playing variations on the same type within their rigidly masculine conformist communities.
Which is to say that Scorsese's films are never about the woman even when they're inordinately feminine (The Age of Innocence). Perhaps Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore is a glorious exception but couldn't it be argued that that fluke sprung from Scorsese's obsession with film genres (let's try a 'woman's picture' this time) more than anything else? [more...]
Wolf of Wall Street, for example, is very interested in Margot's Naomi but only insofar as she reflects Jordan's success or can be displayed as his ultimate trophy among other glorious possessions: yacht, mansion, limos, etcetera. I don't have a screener to see how far this runs or to verify that I'm not stretching but I believe costume designer Sandy Powell and production designer Bob Shaw even color code her on at least three occassions to illustrate this point.
a trophy wife among his other possessions
With the exception of two characters, Belfort's first wife (Cristin Milotti) and a peculiar aunt of Naomi's (Joanna Lumley), who each of have maybe 1% of screen time, the women in Wolf of Wall Street are all either naked or soulless or silent... or some combo of the three.
The Wolf of Wall Street is currently being hotly debated in regards to that always tricky 'celebration vs condemnation' tightrope that satire has to walk. The movie's sexism gets lumped in with that argument, too. Is it a misogynistic film because it portrays that particular community's sexism or is it just sexist in and of itself? Women are treated as Magnolia's Frank TJ Mackie would have them treated as "sperm receptacles" but I'd argue that the gender imbalance goes at least a little bit further than just the aping of Belfort's POV. All of the women in the film cease to exist when they aren't somehow serving Jordan's insatiable lust or greed. This is not true of the male characters, some of whom have scenes without Belfort. And Kyle Chandler's FBI agent seems to exist outside of Jordan's point of view. He even gets a coda scene of his own, indicating the director's interest. Another more superficial distinction gender-wise but still something that's hard not to notice: Margot Robbie is seen in the (spectacular) altogether, and dozens of other women are also flagrantly strewn about in several scenes, tits out. But when it comes time for Leonardo DiCaprio and Jonah Hill to get naked their dignity is preserved with a sock or a prosthetic cock, respectively. This is, of course, standard business in Hollywood which has always preferred objectifying the female body and been precious about "blocking" views of the male body lest anyone see a penis. Scorsese, for all his particular daring elsewhere, plays by the traditional Hollywood rules in this regard which just reminds you that the movies remain a place of great gender imbalance: men both onscreen and watching the screen are people whose sensitivities and "gaze" must be protected and women are decorative objects.
While I was thinking about this, a reader sent me this photo (I heart you, Marcus!) that I don't recall ever seeing before. It has me as hot and bothered as panty-free Naomi makes Jordan on their bedroom floor. It's just so actressy and mid 90s (La Pfeiffer, Noni, Sharon F@#*ing Stone) which are two of my favorite things.
I have no grand point to wrap up with but should say that online discourse about The Wolf of Wall Street hasn't really made me want to see it again. I liked much of it, particularly the performances, but the running time is punishing (especially this time of year when there's a supply and demand problem with time itself). The conversation has made me want to sit down immediately with Goodfellas (1990) which just seems like many lifetimes ago for me while other people seem to have it memorized.
A weird notion has cropped up in the comments here at The Film Experience that I don't like Scorsese films that I feel I must combat. I'm assuming this started because Scorsese's output for the last 9 years hasn't appealed to me much. But the man has been around a lot longer than nine years! I think Hugo and Wolf are lovely and interesting respectively but they're also repetitive/bloated and Gangs of New York I just have no patience for whatsoever. The misconception may have come because I do not worship his filmography as unequivocally as so many critics appear to. My best guess as to why is that I am 1000% more fascinated by women than Scorsese who is inarguably more interested in the psychology of men and the dynamics and power hierarchies of masculine communities.
Nathaniel's Favorite Scorseses
1. The King of Comedy (1983)
2. Taxi Driver (1976)
They're the two that I'd put on a top 100 list of greatest films of my lifetime.
3. The Departed (2006)
4. Raging Bull (1980)
5. Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore (1974)
6. New York New York (1977)
The order changes depending on mood but they're all very strong films. "New York New York" has the same indulgence problem that plagues Wolf which is why it's as low as it is (because otherwise I lurve it) but it also has Liza's greatest performance outside of "Cabaret" and big splashy musical numbers instead of cocaine fueled parties for loud assholes so we're good.
Leonardo DiCaprio likes to go full tilt bonkers for Scorsese
7. The Aviator (2004)
8. Cape Fear (1991)
9. The Age of Innocence (1993)
Maybe they're not perfect but i have the fondness
The rest of Scorsese's filmography I am either a) considerably less fond of b) don't remember well enough to judge, or c) haven't seen.
Reader Comments (38)
Upon seeing The Wolf of Wall Street today (disclosure: It's only second to Frances Ha as my favorite of the year, that said, I understand the objectors and also still think the American Hustle comparisons are BS), I came away with this on the women:
I nearly cried for the shaved head girl.
More Milioti. Then again, How I Met Your Mother is most guilty of this.
Margot Robbie is just as awesome as the men and unfortunately her best scene is something that can't be showcased in a media junket.*
*- Her scene where she has sex with Belfort for the last time. Her just accepting this as the last and being over it all in her facial expressions was incredible work.
I was obsessed with the brassy red-head assistant/secretary Janet. She took nobody's crap.
I actually felt happy knowing Chantalle, Brad's Slovenian wife with a Swiss passport, got to bed Dujardin's character.
Get it, Joanna Lumley.
I wish there was more on Kimmie. I feel like during that montage of the company growing I never saw her yet she was among the 'original 20'. I liked her brass in that she was one of the guys but the layer of tragedy knowing she is among those arrested and the sacrifices she made in being connected to Jordan was a human, moral moment.
That dominatrix flashback scene went much longer than I ever expected. Um, that might be the most shocking scene of the whole film for me. A+ to DiCpario and the actress.
I have no idea where to rank this with Scorsese's filmography but pantheon to me is Mean Streets, Taxi Driver, and The King of Comedy. I may need to re-watch this consider it pantheon. To me it is just as much on the level of Goodfellas and After Hours. I was so relieved this was not a Casino. Talk about a shell of Scorsese style movie.
Last Temptation of Christ is a near-masterpiece.
it was weird seeing so many vaginas and then so little dick. We're not doubting that Jonah Hill used a prosthetic (it'd otherwise surely be bigger news), but even the scene later in the film with Leonardo post-sex and he has his pants down and you can see his arse, and then we cut to him standing up and he's suddenly got his pants back up. Magic pants to protect his body. The women aren't so lucky. To the surprise of nobody, the Frenchman Dujardin is the closest we get to anything like what the women flash.
It's disappointing more because we know he's good with actresses - Bernhard, Bracco, Minnelli, Pfeiffer, Stone, Burstyn, Robbie, the women of AFTER HOURS etc - and a film about Joanna Lumley's money laundering dutchess could have easily been made as entertaining as everyone claiming WOLF to be. Alas.
As for Scorsese, we're very much on a similar path. My favourites are TAXI DRIVER, KING OF COMEDY, LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST, NEW YORK NEW YORK (which, yes, is overlong just like WOLF but isn't so much repetitive and all 160 minutes feel like Scorsese genuinely forcing something creative out of him, unlike WOLF which felt like repeated scenes over and over again from character he's already studied), GOODFELLAS and so on. I'm wondering what it will take for him to make a movie these days that *isn't* embraced. Like, say, another WAKING UP THE DEAD (which I think is stronger than WOLF by far).
Maybe the experience with Bernhard and Jerry Lewis on the KING OF COMEDY set did something to him whereby even when he has interesting female characters and actors he's unwilling to give them stuff that is easy to compartmentalise.
I will make any excuse possible to bring up Sharon stone in casino!!! God she really tore up that role with such reckless abandon!!!
Glenn- Simply fact, the MPAA is scared of dicks. Dujardin and DiCaprio were both game for full-frontal but got cut (yeah, punny) to avoid the NC-17 rating.
Bringing Out the Dead is underrated but a small movie, almost an ending testament to the Schrader-Scorsese collaboration. His other screenwriters, aside from Logan, are pretty Zzzzzz. His changes and decision to do improv with Wolf is honestly one of his smartest decisions. If you thought the film was exhausting the script is an Exhibit A for any critic this movie could have. It's so indulgent. I can believe Winter might've been more swept up in that world than Scorsese ever was.
I know people wish these side female characters got their own movies but then do you want a movie where the female character but what I think Scorsese wants to say about society, capitalism, and the justice system is out the window. You can tell me they could've switched genders or even have given Kimmie or Aunt Emma the lead role but I think what Scorsese really does not like is that Belfort gets to have a redemptive 'out'. That says a lot of his white male privilege that I am not sure a female character in his position gets.
Sadly the "let's try a woman's picture" period was too brief. I always thought that the scenes between Burstyn and Ladd in Alice were memorable.
That's not a bad list by any means and I can totally agree with all of the points you make about Scorsese's greater filmography (I'm yet to see Wolf so I can't comment on that one).
The depiction of women and the way the outward tut-tutting is totally overwhelmed by the randy glorification of brutalist machismo is why I find Raging Bull hugely overrated. While brilliant and inspired in many ways (not to mention phenomenally crafted), it's a hugely problematic movie. Which is what you get from an 'indictment' of aggressive male values from a man who has made a career of gawking at such values with the awe of a schoolboy.
On a related note, it looks increasingly certain that I will go to my grave failing to grasp how Goodfellas is any more special than, say, Casino or Bugsy or, I dunno.. Blow. (All of them faintly generic 'three-star' movies, from my faggy viewpoint.)
All that said however, Taxi Driver is unquestionably one of the greatest things that happened to the movies, and I also have mega-love for Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore (of course), Mean Streets, King of Comedy, Age of Innocence, and The Departed. And I find Bringing Out the Dead pretty underrated.
I'm less in love with New York New York (and I don't think either de Niro or - outside of the numbers - Minnelli are very good in it) but I admire what it's trying to do.
I'm yet to see After Hours, which looks like the type of Scorsese movie I tend to embrace, so I'm looking forward to it.
I have little-to-no patience for Aviator, Gangs of New York and Hugo (outside of those gorgeous silent-era behind the scenes flashbacks, which made me cry like a girl).
I actively despise The Last Temptation of Christ. Not for its 'blasphemy'. For its tackiness.
SHARON STONE - CASINO ENOUGH SAID!
Aviator over Age of Innocence is pure blasphemy.
I think my issue with Scorcese and women isn't necessarily about the micro level but rather that these problems persist throughout his filmography. I mean the man has made upwards of 50 films and only one has had a female protagonist, and he made that practically 40 years ago. How many times can you make movies about troubled (straight white) men from the wrong side of the tracks? How much can you really wring from that narrative after 40 years of introspection?
It's not that I'm saying the films are bad--for the most part they're great films. But I am not of interest in a Scorcese world. He has had 40 years to include voices like mine, voices like my friends, like my mother's. Does that make him a bad man or a bad director? Of course not. But I do get annoyed with critics who assume I should be excited for another journey into his universe. Why should I be required to see and love his films when he makes no effort to include people like me in them?
Cate Blanchett/Hepburn
WOWS, was amazing and so was Robbie in it By the way on the ridiculous comment the other day about Hustle, which was just Scorsese-lite. WOWS, is just a much better and more memorable film.
TB- I really hope you check out The Wolf of Wall Street. I know you have stated it seems pointless but I actually think Scorsese shows contempt for Belfort and worse, the system set in place to enforce against the likes of Belfort being so weak.
Anyway, I can at least appreciate that maybe he realizes this limitation in his whole career and has said as much. Maybe if he work with a female screenwriter or rather work again with previous collaborators, like Kenneth Lonnergan, to give him that layered female character. Terrence Winter kinda sucks in that department but I there are a lot of interesting female dynamics in the Stratton Oakmont scenes that give Wolf texture.
I feel like I am in the minority but Casino is such a snore, such a style over substance film, such a retread of a cobbled together greatest hits piece than a cohesive unit, that I cannot even commit to Stone's performance. I think they lost me with her when she started to blow Joe Pesci. Really? It's the last act of Goodfellas stretched out for 3 hours. At least Wolf goes through different stages.
I will say, Nathaniel, by stating something like:
" The misconception may have come because I do not worship his filmography as unequivocally as so many critics appear to. My best guess as to why is that I am 1000% more fascinated by women than Scorsese who is inarguably more interested in the psychology of men and the dynamics and power hierarchies of masculine communities."
it might suggest that Scorsese is fighting a losing battle with you because he's never been 1000% fascinated by the women, which would account for the perception (however inaccurate) that you don't like him. He doesn't make women focused film, so the cards seem stacked against him.
I don't think the two facets are necessarily incompatible, though. I love women focused pictures and actresses more than actors, but I love Scorsese. Certainly, much of his oeuvre is a variation on the theme of destructive and self-destructive men and many are not women focused but having not seen THE WOLF OF WALL STREET and having (unsuccessfully, sometimes) to avoid the brouhaha it has elicited I've observed the somewhat ungenerous conception that not only are his films male focused but he directs his women poorly which I don't think is a fair assessment.
I think of something like THE DEPARTED which is a favourite of his for me but claustrophobic in its male-focused nature and as written with a sliver of a female character in Madolyn but as directed by Martin, Vera's performance takes on more gravitas than on the page. Which is where I think sure Madolyn fits the bill of popping up, but making that character land couldn't have been easy.
Yes, I'd want Scorsese to make female focused drama but generally considering some of the criticism by changing the focus of any of his male focused dramas to the women it wouldn't be the same film with the same goals anymore, and I'm dubious about impugning a director for subject choice. I don't really understand the argument of castigating a director not focusing on an aspect of a film we wanted him to, unless he's misrepresenting and suggesting that he would.
And, I don't know, at the end of the day with Scorsese and women I think of THE AVIATOR (which is basically all about Howard and his women until he goes insane) and Kate Beckinsale saying:
"You can't buy me, Howard, so stop trying. Don't buy me any more diamonds or sapphires or any other damn thing. You can buy me dinner."
Sure, they're almost never the focus but similarly almost never negligible.
(An aside, I understand how frustrating it must be in this this prolonged WOLF conservation, when not liking it is equated with not liking Scorsese but I'm just as annoyed with the consistent suggestion that those who praise it roundly are only doing it because they worship his filmography.)
Have you seen After Hours? I'm surprised it's not in your countdown. It definitely had the same female problems you're describing here, but there are so many of them, and they're so weird and quirky, and they're Teri, Rosanna, Linda and Catherine!
My top 5 are After Hours, King of Comedy, Bull, Taxi and GoodFellas, and I really couldn't put them in any order.
YAY @ Alice. \0/
I think Sharon Stone in Casino is the perfect example of the problem with Scorsese's women. I've sat through Casino twice, and while I can't articulate exactly what it is that bothers me about Sharon Stone's character and her treatment in the movie... yup, something's not quite right there. She's a major character, she's important, the movie is definitely sympathetic towards her... but. But she still doesn't quite feel like a real person who the story is actually interested in. And the thing that keeps on popping up in Casino and much, much more so in WOWS, is that it's very easy to show horrible actions towards women and condemn them, but these actions are the very end of a long process. And that's a process I'm not sure Scorsese, Winter, Dicaprio and Belfort are able to recognise.
I will give this to Casino, though, while it was a chore to sit through it twice, I managed it. I can't say the same for the Aviator, for example, and I don't think I'll be in a rush to rewatch WOWS again.
I will say in the WOWS certain actions against women done by Belfort are undercut with 'Ick! This is awful! He is awful!'
His violence against Naomi. Come on. That's an easy one and she didn't deserve.
The way Naomi is filmed under Jordan in that final scene.
The story of the woman who had sex with everybody in the office, exploited by Jordan in particular, married one of Jordan's colleagues- briefly noted that the marriage was unhappy and the man killed himself- shown with an incredibly graphic photo.
The way the head shaved woman is cut back too. If the filmmaking was so fleeting and avoiding any moment of introspection- why cut back to her again?
Am I the only fan of Shutter Island (though it is no where near my favorite Scorsese)? I think it's a solid mystery with really great cinematography. And as far as women go, Michelle Williams is spectacular and it's great work in a small role from Patricia Clarkson.
Great write up. There's a double edges sword with Wolf - the swearing, coke-riddled world of sales really exists, and it's sexist as hell. Coming from a sales background, I doubt there's another profession where women are more pressured to be "one of the boys." It would be so easy to turn this into an interesting commentary on the dehumanization that comes with greed, but instead, we get the scene where we talk about Kimmy rather than ever actually talking to Kimmy. It's a bummer, because the movie seems complicit in making women less relevant. (Lumley still does a lot with a little as the aunt, but that's her brilliance as an actress, not the script.) I actually forget that I really like Scorsese when he's "on," because when he's not, his movies feel like a series of male cliches. With that said, Wolf did a lot of interesting things, but Belfort is ultimately all it cares about. (After all, he's narrating and he only seems to care about himself.)
andrew -- i don't think he is a poor director of female actors AT ALL. I just don't think he cares about the female characters in a substantial way. His filmography has several really potent female characters but to a large degree they seem to be getting their power from the actress herself (and maybe her direction) but not from any concerns of the film.
but as for the losing battle. I've always been honest about thiis interest in women. It's not that male psychology isn't interesting to me but that i'm more naturally curious about female psychology AND i'd argue it's sorely underrepresented in cinema which makes it all the more fascinating when it eventually does pop up. what irks me is that people sometimes feel like that makes me a poor judge of certain filmmakers (as if my opinion of Scorsese is suspect because of this) and yet critics who are obviously, like Scorsese, only interested in men, never seem to be taken to task for not being interested in half the human race and their opinions of Scorsese are somehow more valid because they also don't care about the women in his movies?
mike -- i've seen that one but like some of the others from the 80s i dont remember it well at all
Tyler -- i heartily disagree with this. I think Hustle is so much more entertaining. interesting and funny characters of both genders and not just one point of view. I got tired of Belfort after one hour and there was two more hours of his point of view. \
For someone who loves actresses and actressing, I am crazy about Scorsese. Must be the New Yorker in me. Not the biggest fan of most of the Pesci Trilogy or the DiCaprio Era. Wish Marty would work with Bale once or twice.
FAVORITE 10 FILMS:
01) New York, New York
02) Taxi Driver
03) Mean Streets
04) The Last Waltz
05) Raging Bull
06) Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore
07) The Wolf of Wall Street
08) The Age of Innocence
09) The Last Temptation of Christ
10) Bringing Out The Dead
FAVORITE 10 PERFORMANCES:
01) Robert De Niro in Taxi Driver
02) Liza Minnelli in New York, New York
03) Jodie Foster in Taxi Driver
04) Robert De Niro in Mean Streets
05) Ellen Burstyn in Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore
06) Robert De Niro in Raging Bull
07) Leonardo DiCaprio in The Wolf of Wall Street
08) Robert De Niro in Cape Fear
09) Danel Day Lewis in The Age of Innocence
10) Danel Day Lewis in Gangs of New York
Wasn't Alice kind of a contract job? Ellen Burstyn basically developed it, and the studio hired Scorsese. I don't know that he had any particular passion for it (or even the power to turn it down). It is one of his best films, though.
There are so many things I admire about Martin Scorsese. I've watched his films for many years, and am encouraged when he takes a step forward, and saddened when he takes several steps back (shhh... the Scorsese fans can be particularly vicious).
I was encouraged when he made Hugo, a labour of love. He made it for his daughter, for love of his craft, for a child. He was exploring something new, and there were some glorious bits, and even a clever girl heroine.
Wolf of Wall Street seems to be taking several steps back. A nostalgic look back, full of intense longing and no regrets, for the coke-fueled movie productions of another era. Oh Marty, is this really where your heart is?
In a Christmas season, it reminds me of the Grinch, whose heart was three sizes too small. Cindy-Lou, we need you now.
"Wolf of Wall Street seems to be taking several steps back. A nostalgic look back, full of intense longing and no regrets, for the coke-fueled movie productions of another era. Oh Marty, is this really where your heart is?"
Have you seen the movie?
'The misconception may have come because I do not worship his filmography as unequivocally as so many critics appear to.'
Yeah, I wouldn't say I thought you disliked Scorcese. Just that you didn't LOVE some of his films as I do. Goodfellas is one of my favorite films ever and The Departed is one of the best wins of the last decade. To me, these are Scorcese at the top of his game, and if they are not even top 5 material for you then I won't completely trust that I'll agree with anything you write about WOWS until I see it myself.
'My best guess as to why is that I am 1000% more fascinated by women than Scorsese who is inarguably more interested in the psychology of men and the dynamics and power hierarchies of masculine communities'
I think that's probably it and I agree that his films have many more male characters than female characters - but I don't think that necesarily makes his films (pre-WOWS) sexist in any way or less than worthy.
Although from what I've read about WOWS, I think I'll probably agree with you about the sexism - even if some of it is hollywood-imposed (cut the male nudity; studio worried that penises will scare away their target audience - has Game of Thrones and True Blood taught the studios anything?) vs. Director-imposed (which is what you seem to be implying).
I haven't seen his entire filmography, but I second Nat's view that he is a strong director of females (when their roles are substantial). Lorraine Bracco, Jodie Foster, Cate Blanchett, Sharon Stone...etc. (we won't mention Verra Farmiga's character here). When I look at that list it makes me even more excited to see Robbie Hill in this.
I do think Sharon Stone have her best performance with him and she has managed to coast on Catherine Trammell and Ginger for decades now.
Like Sharon, Margot seemed to realize her opportunity and she seized on it. They are both similar, hungry performances that pop more than other actresses do in his films. Lorraine Bracco is also in that league for Goodfellas -- and again, she coasted on that and still does. The Sopranos wouldn't have happened for her without that role.
"Goodfellas is one of my favorite films ever and The Departed is one of the best wins of the last decade. To me, these are Scorcese at the top of his game, and if they are not even top 5 material for you then I won't completely trust that I'll agree with anything you write about WOWS until I see it myself."
See my list above. You don't have to worship at the altar of either of those two films to appreciate WOWS.
Bia,
Yeah, I mostly agree with what you are saying. Although note I don't think it's accurate to say these actresses are the exception (AKA 'pop more than other actresses in his films").
It's more accurate to say that actresses 'pop' in his films when their roles are substantial period. And actresses who don't 'pop' are the exception. Most of his large-sized actress roles (with the exception of Farmiga) in his best films have great performances in them.
The 'problem' is that there is not a plethora of good sized female roles in his films.
I'm with Paul. The Scorsese-DiCaprio collaborations were an arc that I was not interested in seeing continue but this movie made me rethink all of that.
Unless my eyes are going, I could've sworn DuJardin had a small moment of full frontal. He doesn't seem like the type to do a prosthetic.
"The 'problem' is that there is not a plethora of good sized female roles in his films."
That's a problem with a lot of films/directors though, race, sexuality etc. Seriously replace good sized female roles with Asian, Black, etc. Spike Jonze/Nolan.
If I said that I couldn't get into a particular director's film or a films in general because there's a lack of Black Female characters, I would be missing a ton of great movies.
I thought Margot Robbie wasn't impressive at all. I think that she was only cast for her looks, and I didn't see anything that would make me think she'll be carrying any movies any time soon. She had opportunities to pop, but she never stole any scenes from DiCaprio. Maybe, that is what Scorsese wanted...
You dirty old women that want more penis, please go to the dirty old lady porn sites on line. If you want all the female nudity removed, i have no problem. It is unnecessary and inuindo can be more effective and just as funny without offending amyone. Too call for more dick because a few female pubic hairs are shown, just makes you a dirty old ladies.
I thought that the film was too raunchy. Really no need.
Also, hollywood protrayal of sex and drugs on wall street is laughable! I tend to think that there is just a tad bit more of that going on with the hollywood filthy rich "elite".
congrats you noticed that men see women as objects and not people good job
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