TIFF: Twelve Ye... Oh, Let's Just Oscar Update
Thursday, September 12, 2013 at 6:16PM Twelve Years a Slave is... God, I'm going to need some time to collect myself. Good grief but that movie is harrowing / amazing. That's all I got for now. Can we discuss later when I've stopp... I think I have something in my eye.
But since we're talking powerful and overwhelming emotion, our minds should naturally drift to actresses. Patsey the slave (Lupita Nyong'o) confides memorably to Solomon Northup (Chiwetel Ejiofor) that she has no comfort in this world. But Supporting Actress is deeply comforting to us and we need comfort right now after this movie.
Reducing great movies to Oscar talk is awful. I know I know. I hate myself for typing this but LET'S TALK OSCAR'S BEST SUPPORTING ACTRESS RACE (UPDATED CHART). I went in to 12 Years a Slave anxious to see what McQueen & Fassbender could do (I'm happy to report that they're three for three under the umbrella of utterly amazing director/muse collaborations) and wasn't thinking about the actresses much at all. A rarity. But still, once I remembered to think of them I was curious about Qu'venzhane Wallis (barely in it... in fact most people won't notice that she is) and Alfre Woodard. Alfre at least has a juicy and blessedly atypical scene to chew on. It's kind of a relief really from the scenes surrounding it and every harrowing story needs catch your breath moments. Especially if you've forgotten to breathe. Which kept happening to me.
As it turns out Lupita Nyong'o as the slave girl "Patsey" and Sarah Paulson as her cruel mistress "Mary Epps" are where it's at for supporting actressing in this movie. Their every scene together is knife's edge brilliant.
Also @ TIFF
Labor Day in a freeze-frame nutshell
Paranoia Mano-a-mano Thrillers Enemy & Pioneer
Jessica Chastain at the Eleanor Rigby Premiere
August Osage County reactions Plus Best Picture Nonsense
Rush Ron Howard's crowd pleaser
TIFF Vow: Dreaming of 2014
The Past from Oscar winner Asghar Farhadi & Cannes Best Actress Berenice Bejo
Queer Double Feature: Tom at the Farm and Stranger by the Lake
Boogie Nights Live Read with Jason Reitman and Friends
First 3 Screenings: Child's Pose, Unbeatable and Isabelle Huppert in Abuse of Weakness
TIFF Arrival: Touchdown in Toronto. Two unsightly Oscars
Reader Comments (54)
I love Sarah Paulson so much, but I'm guessing if Nyong'o gets in, Paulson won't.
A lot of the reviews I've read have mentioned the two of them--Lupita, especially, as giving one of the greatest debut performances of the past decade. I'm so happy that McQueen has tackled and nailed a film of such greater scale, and from reports, it seems that all of his four main actors give inspired performances.
No mention at all of Adepero Oduye? Nyong'o is most definitely the standout, but I thought Oduye was flawless too (the movie, not so much, I'm sorry to say).
Come to me 12 Years COME TO ME!
That said, I don't see why you and others have faith in Lawrence and Diaz's chances. We know nothing of their roles/performances.
James T -- this is why they're called "predictions" as opposed to "documentary"
Kurt -- you don't seem to like anything lately!
Well thanks for the lesson Nathaniel :p
Still, predictions must be based on *something*. I don't see enough of that something in either of those cases.
I'm very excited about this picture! (though only liked "shame")
I hope it's intense, I don't some 'cold'/'distant' approach. (I remember "shame" being cheesy/melodramatic - that spielberg-in-munich sex scene? -, so I shouldn't be worried)
Yay! So excited to see this movie. Glad to hear it's so good. The trailer had me a bit worried.
The raves for this film make me anxious. Not that I suspect I'll be underwhelmed I just feel like I'm being setup for something I'm not prepared for.
James T -- well chalk it up to i don't quite believe in any of the candidates yet beyond the top two. still more left to see.
I knew you were going to say that! Hey, I LOVE The Butler, Mother of George, Stories We Tell, Spring Breakers, Laurence Anyways, Blue Jasmine, Before Midnight, Passion, Gimme the Loot, Shadow Dancer, Frances Ha, I'm So Excited, and...You're Next. (And I like Brie Larson too, dagnabbit)
And please don't get me wrong: There's some great stuff here (the letter burning out to the last ember is one of the finest shots of 2013), and you could load the acting categories with the cast. (I nominate: Fassbender, Oduye, and Nyong'o, who is indeed astonishing.) But I do think that, post-Hunger, McQueen has become a faux provocateur, whom I don't believe, in his ice-cold approach, is aware of the difference between the unflinching and the gratuitous. Nyong'o's whipping scene is one that surely changed my life in some way, and that's a very good thing, but many others don't have the same effect. Many of the ones he chooses to endlessly linger on feel punishing in an unintended way (as in, not to force you to look at painful things, but to force you to endure McQueen's technique), and I do believe that there is so much here--so much scale, so much pain, so much "prestige," so much history, so many actors, so much buzz--that it's distracting from the sense that the film is often lacking in nuance, and, especially, personality. Seriously--[and this is a spoiler, y'all] we don't get ANYTHING regarding what Solomon gained from descending from his free, upper-class life to the life endured by so many of his people? Just a cheery family reunion, a fade to black, and some postscripts about the real man's eventual activism? I'm sure many would argue that such is where the nuance of Chiwetel's acting fills in the holes, and sure, Solomon's survival instincts were fierce, but I thought it was very irresponsible on McQueen's part to just rush to the finish line like that. It's further evidence of his coldness.
But, hey, don't listen to me...I liked the One Direction movie. ;-)
Given Kurtis saw it and I didn't, I cannot really vouch for anything in his criticism except maybe, 'Well, slavery was awful and Solomon Northup as the **in** for audiences to that could play as so naive if it made it all about what he learned', but I hate arguing about something I have not even seen. But I want this movie NOW. I do know people distracted by cameos, negative comparisons to The Thin Red Line but I can forgive Pitt putting himself in a movie he produced because it does help the movie, cynically speaking.
Also, yay Sarah Paulson going to the big screen with such a role. Love her and she finally broke from the shackles of having to play the most odious Aaron Sorkin character pre-The Newsroom when she went on American Horror Story.
Still nervous, but I'm nervous because I want it to be good so badly.
Glad you liked it, yes both Nyongo and Paulson were fierce. I think this is McQueen's best film.
Kurt -- those are valid criticisms but they didn't ruin the film for me at all. Hunger is still my favorite of his films but this one is damn good.
I am REALLY curious to know what's going on in that picture.
do you see a scenario where Harris gets nominated without Elba? Her reviews are stellar and the category looks for now to be less crowded than actor?
Based on seeing the Mandela movie, I can easily see where Naomie Harris could drop in with a nomination. Elba's Mandela still has the iconography plaster around it but Winnie has a much more radical arc, with some pretty bait-y scenes (she gets placed in solitary confinement and there is some actress-y to behold), and the movie is not afraid to show how that effected their marriage.
"Many of the ones he chooses to endlessly linger on feel punishing in an unintended way (as in, not to force you to look at painful things, but to force you to endure McQueen's technique"
You said many, there were only two scenes like this.
"we don't get ANYTHING regarding what Solomon gained from descending from his free, upper-class life to the life endured by so many of his people? Just a cheery family reunion"
I wouldn't call that family reunion Cheery?Seriously!?
I'm not sure exactly what you wanted McQueen to show us about what he gained?
I your predictions go the way they are now (and that's a big if, of course), that'll mean three black actresses in the one category. Would that be a first?
Okay, I will concede that "cheery" wasn't the right word to use there. I submit "tidy." And there are many shots and choices McQueen makes, both aurally and visually, that are relentless. Far more than two. I'm not necessarily speaking of moments expressly similar to Nyong'o's whipping--which, again, I have no argument with. I will never, ever, ever forget it, and I hope that every person with even an ounce of racism--which is basically everyone--has to endure it at some point.
For the record, I'm not happy about having these opinions about McQueen! I think Hunger is an absolute masterpiece. But I also think the film world has made up it's mind that he's a great, unimpeachable artist when he may be a one-hit wonder (so to speak).
@Kurtis
According to reviews for Shame and now 12 Years, McQueen is very obviously not a one-hit wonder. Perhaps in your universe.
If we have Lupita, Oprah and Octavia nominated it'll be the first time ever that any category have a majority of black actors, right? Wonderful.
If Lupita is the key to keep Oprah from that oscar that would make me overjoyed
@Kurtis, isn't that your opinion though? I think there are many filmmakers that people have these thoughts about Scorsese, Malick, Tarantino. I personally enjoyed all three of McQueen's films that doesn't mean I think he's unimpeachable. It sounds like to me you have more of an issue with the film worlds response to McQueen. Which is weird.
Well, perhaps I am a bit weird, Melissa, but I think I made it quite clear in my comments that I certainly don't have MORE of an issue with the film world's response to McQueen. I reserved most of my personal reactions for the film itself and McQueen's work. I simply added that I do think (what seems to be) the general perception of McQueen as an artist is influencing people's responses to his post-Hunger stuff and promoting groupthink. McQueen is a cold filmmaker, and that doesn't change simply because he can tackle taboo subjects with an artful eye. And yes, of course that is my opinion.
And, yes, tr, McQueen is a one-hit wonder in my universe. I didn't mean to imply that he's a one-hit wonder on the blessed Tomatometer.
And cheers to Cal Roth--this looks like a year that will have the most nominated black talent (onscreen and off) ever, which I think is tremendously exciting. Wouldn't you agree, Nat?
""I simply added that I do think (what seems to be) the general perception of McQueen as an artist is influencing people's responses to his post-Hunger stuff and promoting groupthink."
I think that this kind of thinking is immature no? Just because you don't like his post Hunger films doesn't mean they're awful and the only reason everyone else likes them is because they liked Hunger and McQueen is an artist. I just think that these are the same sort of arguments that you can find on the IMDB board on ANY director's board. You can apply these arguments to just about any director.
I could just call you a troll and say just because you don't like Shame, you were never going to like 12 Years a Slave. That would be immature.
I would also say for me, this film isn't as cold as his others.
I know this is going to sound like utter B.S., but I promise that the first time I saw the trailer for this movie I had an intuition that Lupita Nyong was going to be an MVP. I'm glad that that instinct was correct because I love it when unknowns come out of nowhere to deliver amazing performances.
Why is "cold" an insult. Seriously? I don't understand how this came to be a problem. Kubrick is cold but no one questions his briliance (well, except for me every once in awhile. lol) i would agree that McQueen is cold as an artist but i also think he's brilliant as an artist so i love the temperature ;)
as for the most people of color nominated... it will be tough to beat 2006 which I think had 7 of the 20 acting nominees right? between the asian, hispanic and african-americans. I'm not 100% sold on McQueen getting a director nomination (though he's in a good position to get one surely) because, as always with Oscar, they are sometimes exclusionary with their little clubs and he doesn't strike me as the type that would schmooze them for favor. We shall see.
"Cold" only seems to be an insult when talking about US box office and Oscar prospects. Which is why I'm always gratified when films by Fincher, Nolan et al are successful in those arenas. Most of my favorite filmmakers get the cold label, and it's probably one of the main reasons why Hitchcock never received a competitive Oscar.
I mean I don't think cold is an insult. But as someone who doesn't particularly favor the cold aesthetic, I do think that there's some kind of expectation that you should look beyond your personal preferences to acknowledge the inherent greatness of cold films, and that those expectations are not mirrored with lighter or more traditionally emotional filmmaking.
"I could just call you a troll and say just because you don't like Shame, you were never going to like 12 Years a Slave. That would be immature."
Well, Melissa, you just said it, so, immaturity established. I'll skip past the non-commital "coulds" and say outright that you're giving the impression that your blind love for this movie is causing you to make point-missing and presumptuous rebuttals. I'll stress "giving the impression" becasue I don't want to take a page from your book and plant words in mouths and thoughts in heads. Never once did I say anything about McQueen's films being "awful," nor would I toss out wild accusations about someone I don't know, like you, for example, and (underhandedly) call him or her a "troll," to which I take great offense, for the record.
To others, "cold" is admittedly a kind of umbrella term that doesn't get to the specifics of why McQueen's recent work turns me off. There are certainly other "cold" filmmakers, like Fincher, whose work I like a lot. I think it has to do with the subject matter to which McQueen insists on applying his sensibilities. Sex addiction and slavery are very sensitive human subjects that he clearly wants to explore in a very profound way, but he just doesn't seem to have the compassion to match the strength of his aesthetic. Somehow, it's not the same as making a film about the dawn of Facebook, or a fight club, or a serial killer. He aims for the more humane but doesn't suffuse it with sufficient humanity, IMO.
(This, for the record, is precisely why Benjamin Button is Fincher's least successful film--he tried to pull a McQueen.)
"(This, for the record, is precisely why Benjamin Button is Fincher's least successful film--he tried to pull a McQueen.)"
Everything about this sentence is untrue, Kurtis. ;-)
""Well, Melissa, you just said it, so, immaturity established. I'll skip past the non-commital "coulds" and say outright that you're giving the impression that your blind love for this movie is causing you to make point-missing and presumptuous rebuttals. I'll stress "giving the impression" becasue I don't want to take a page from your book and plant words in mouths and thoughts in heads. Never once did I say anything about McQueen's films being "awful," nor would I toss out wild accusations about someone I don't know, like you, for example, and (underhandedly) call him or her a "troll," to which I take great offense, for the record. "
The internet is wonderful isn't it. I wasn't calling you a troll, I was giving you an example of IMDB behavior. Blind love for this movie really?? If I'm not mistake we weren't really talking about the movie were we?
Here is my issue with you Kurtis,
Yes I loved the movie, it is my favorite film of 2013 so far. This film probably means more to me than you and that's fine. I cried during the film and was very happy for it's reception. A film dealing with slavery from the Black perspective is certainly refreshing, so excuse me for questioning your criticism.
The Holly Reporter said that they thought it was a bit too sentimental. I don't have a problem with that. No. I can understand why they said that.
You had issue's with Chiwetel's performance did I say anything about that? No.
I would think that my "blind love" would have led me to say something about that, but it didn't .
I only questioned two things about your issues with the film which didn't really make sense to me., but I guess that was my blind love for the film right.
My issue(which has nothing to do with the film itself) is that you're stating your opinion about film like it's fact and you are questioning everybody else's opinion about the film like something is wrong with them. They don't see the same thing you see and that's a problem for me. Their perspective on McQueen is clouding their judgment on his work. I'm sorry, but just because I don't like something and everybody else does doesn't mean that they're wrong and I'm right. That is what a hate about film culture.
@Kurtis
So what are your issues with the film?
Kurt -- i would argue that overt sentimentality is was destroys many potentially great films with human sensitive subject matter so I dont agree with your argument there that these aren't the right topics for McQueen. I loved SHAME but that's a film where i totally understand the criticisms of people who hated it because it was joyless and heavyhanded and all of that. But i think this utterly clear eyed look at human atrocity was just what the world needed in a depiction of slavery. It's usually too cleaned up, considering.
Keisha -- i think Kurt said quite a bit earlier in the comments about the film directly
First of all, I never said I had an issue with Chiwetel's performance, nor am I forcing my opinions on anyone, or insisting that others' opinions are wrong. Nearly every position I took here began with "I think" or "I believe." I would never presume to have the ultimate, "factual" opinion of a film and suggest that "something is wrong" with those who don't agree. That's preposterous. But whatever. I've said my piece. I'm glad you found great meaning in the film. I had a lot of impassioned things to say about it, and this is where I chose to spill them, but in general, I come to Nathaniel's site to joy-read, and celebrate film, and engage in good discourse, not get into petty arguments, which is pretty much where this has headed. I'm sure there will be plenty of great things to discuss/debate/muse over in the coming weeks/months. Peace.
And Nat -- "But i think this utterly clear eyed look at human atrocity was just what the world needed in a depiction of slavery." I can't say I think this film is precisely what the world needed, but I will most certainly agree that the wave of black-themed films from black artists that have been saturating the culture is absolutely what the world needs. I may have issues with this movie, but, like The Butler, it left me walking around with a shifted perspective on the world, and on race, and history, and I consider myself an extremely liberal person. If an iota of what I've gained from these films affects those with narrower minds and bigoted views, then, in general, there is much to be applauded.
Kurtis,
I don't come here to argue either. I wasn't trying to start anything with you, but your statement about perception of McQueen's post-Hunger work rubbed me the wrong way. If I misjudged that statement then I apologize.
BTW, I love David Fincher, but I really don't care for Benjamin Button either.
I'll say it again, not very many people- including people in Hollywood- know who Steve McQueen, director is, nor have they seen all of his work. People will see 12 Years a Slave not knowing who the director is and when it is over feel confused that Steve McQueen the actor came back from the dead to do a movie on slavery. The people who are expecting viewers to flee because of his body of work rather than the subject matter confuse me a bit, especially when that style is not exactly out of vogue. Coldness had many imitators this year, particularly in the summer, that I can only see fatigue set in but for this subject matter (like Fincher and Bigelow's recent movies) being more appropriate than be disappointed a movie about slavery is colder than Man of Steel or The Wolverine.
"Sex addiction and slavery are very sensitive human subjects that he clearly wants to explore in a very profound way, but he just doesn't seem to have the compassion to match the strength of his aesthetic."
The more I thought about Shame since watching it, the more I thought it was about disconnect and trying to connect but feeling so detached in basic human interactions. I thought Brandon and Sissy both experienced a shared trauma that for me told more of the story than Brandon's supposed 'sex addiction'. But then again, I may have been grabbing for subtext and it is just my interpretation of that movie.
Well said, Kurtis
@Murtada because Whites are always right.
@Murtada
Let's give Kurtis a pat on the back for handling an angry Black woman.
I'm talking about his last point not the whole thing. It is very well said
Keshia, I'm aware that you are being sarcastic, but I wasn't angry. Annoyed, but not angry.
@murtada
Because he was getting involved in a petty argument with a Black woman and having a debate with everyone else. Yeah well said.
Melissa you didn't need to apologize for shit. The whole imdb example went over his head. Did you really think you guys were arguing? You should join Shadowandact. A film site dedicated to Black film. You won't be ignored there.
WIth all due respect, you're crazy to have ScarJo so low in your BSA predictions. She's having a moment. http://www.hitfix.com/in-contention/on-the-resurgence-of-scarlett-joha nsson/2
all things considered, 12 Years didn't move me all that much.... i think that's because, for the most part, there wasn't anything in it that i didn't expect.
certainly nyong'o has a great screen presence, but her role is *terribly* one-note.... in fact, the majority of roles in this film felt this way to me. i think this is likely more a criticism of the source material than the filmmaking, but in the end i'm not sure mcqueen did very much in terms of elevating these roles to give the actors more dimension to work with.