Q&A: Best "Crazy," Gay Identification, and Old Hollywood Favorites
Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 9:25PM I'm a day late to our 'you ask, I answer' weekly party. But you didn't play along well with the rules this week. This time I asked for "weird" questions and got a bunch of the normal kind about favorite actresses! (Well, a few were weird. I love the Streep Hair question but I'll save it for another post) Since we're talking about weird let's start with this.
For some reason in the comments section this thing cropped up of people recommending I see After Hours (1985) and 'why haven't I seen it because it's got so many actresses and whatnot.' Bitch plz I saw that in 1986 on VHS (I broke my "R" Rated movie cherry in 1985, fwiw).I don't think it's prime Scorsese or anything but Scorsese movies are such sausage parties that I treasure it as a real outlier in his filmography alongside Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore and The Age of Innocence... the only other ones that seem more interested in actors of the female persuasion.
But ignoring the assumption that I haven't seen it, it's a great film to bring up in a "weird" mood because everyone is a little touched. As a kid I L-O-V-E-D Terri Garr in everything.
HEY: since you asked - favorite performances of characters that are "a little touched"?
Oh great, now we have to define "touched" which is difficult. Two actors who I think do all time great work delineating the slow mounting crazy of their characters are Robert de Niro in Taxi Driver (Best Shot APRIL 15th! Join us) and Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction. For non-violent 'something's off here' characters anything Shelley Duvall ever played amirite. She's so perfectly "off". Michelle Pfeiffer is scalpel precise with her sociopathic tendencies in White Oleander and with Catwoman's unravelling (particularly at the end -- it's like watching glass break and all the pieces of her shattering everywhere). Speaking of unravelling I will never ever ever forget that trainwreck "concert" from Ronee Blakeley in Nashville. Laura Dern, The Face, is really gifted with "heightened" crazy, less concerned with realism than auteurist mood, tone and style, especially with Lula (Wild at Heart) and, in her own words:
'...whatever I was in Inland Empire. I have no fucking clue!'
Classic actresses, unloved remakes, and more crazies after the jump...
But if you're speaking visibly bonkers -- actors going Mommie Dearest big with their psychosis -- I love the hell out of Fiona Shaw's crack-up in Black Dahlia, Steve Martin's dentist in Little Shop, Christian Bale's everything in American Psycho, Juliette Lewis's moodswings in Natural Born Killers, Brad Pitt's jumping bean lunacy in 12 Monkeys, and Bette Davis for time and all eternity in Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?
JOEYS: What remake does everyone hate but you secretly love?
Gus Van Sant's Psycho (1998) all the way. I really do love it in an academic "exercize" way. He has balls and really so does Anne Heche who I will forever wish had become a big movie star. TV seems to have sanded off her edges but she was a thorny wonder for awhile on celluloid.
Classic actresses, jack lemmon, and straight romance after the jump...
FOREVER1267: What's your favorite bathroom scene in the movies?
That's easy. Kirsten Dunst and that guy with the lopsided smile whose name I always forget brushing their teeth in Bring It On. It's not Psycho because I never want Marion Crane to die and always hope she'll come to her senses before those violins begin to shriek.
CHRISTOPHER: Audra McDonald has six Tony's and two Grammys. She has a good shot at an Emmy now that HBO has filmed Lady Day at Emerson's Bar and Grill; what would you want to see her do to complete the EGOT?
Ideally, a musical. I don't understand why they don't try for a definitive version of "Porgy & Bess" onscreen since the version we have from 1959 is rarely seen and not really well loved at that and she was great in that onstage. And with apologies to Tonya Pinkins who was out of this world phenomenal in "Caroline or Change" on Broadway, but if they ever film that (which they absolutely should) Audra would be great in it since we know they wouldn't consider Pinkins due to being considerably less famous and older.
ULRICH: As a straight man I wonder, how is it being gay having to watch romantic movies or other movies in which there's romance? in 98 percent of the cases it's between a man and a woman; straight love. Is it strange?
It is absolutely the most normal thing in the world. One of the benefits of being a minority is you are encouraged to identify with characters that don't look or feel like you for various reasons because you grow up in a culture that doesn't really reflect you back at you. It can be frustrating when you don't ever see yourself in the moving image but I also think of it as a gift. It can strengthen your imagination and your empathy for your fellow man if you let it. This question actually makes me think of the tired old belief that Disney still lives by (pretending their girls movies are less girly than they are in the first wave of advertising) that little girls will see little boy movies but little boys won't have it the other way around. I think everyone except straight white men, actually, is asked to see themselves in movie characters that aren't directly representational. And I think it's actually a detriment to straight white men that they're so pandered too; there's more to see in the world than what's in the mirror.
Jack Lemmon flirts with Judy Holliday in "It Should Happen To You"
MrW: Any thoughts on Jack Lemmon?
He makes me laugh really hard in Some Like It Hot (1959) and ugly cry in Shortcuts (1993). I think we call that range. But boy does he err on overdoing it sometimes. One Jack Lemmon I always like to recommend to people because not enough people have seen it is It Should Happen To You (1954) because it's really fun and Judy Holliday is a treasure.
JOEL6: Who are your top ten favorite actresse pre-1950? And three favorite performances by each
Let's say... can I just say "all"? No? Okay fine. Um... (in alpha order)
Judy helps me count my 10 favorites... liberally
- Judy Garland (#1)
...the rest are alphabetical - Mary Astor
- Fay Bainter
- Ingrid Bergman
- Louise Brooks (as previously discussed)
- Claudette Colbert
- Joan Crawford
- Bette Davis
... I will always love that Joan & Bette are so often together when alphabetizing stars and truth: I actually like their work about the same in some ways which would surely infuriate them. Both had star mojo in the biggest way. Bette was more genius but Joan more consistent, really. - Olivia de Havilland
- Irene Dunne
- Greer Garson
- Lillian Gish
- Vivien Leigh
- Carole Lombard
- Agnes Moorehead
- Maureen O'Hara (finally getting her due lately. hooorah)
- Ginger Rogers
- Norma Shearer (my pet)
- Barbara Stanwyck
Is that 10? I'm bad at math. The first two on the list, Mary Astor & Fay Bainter I didn't even realize quite how much I loved them until I started noticing how many of their films I'd actually seen and remembered that they were A+ in all of 'em. Under the subheading of 'I'm slightly cooler on them than other people seem to be but I definitely get the appeal': Dietrich, Garbo, Hayworth, Hepburn, Loy, Russell; Under the subheading: 'would like to see a few more but love what I've seen': Kay Francis, Miriam Hopkins, Marie Dressler, Gloria Swanson, and Janet Gaynor. Under the subheading 'I don't quite get it or I dont get it at all but I'm open to keep trying': Harlow, Jones, Oberon, Fontaine, Wright, Wyman, Young.
Marie Dressler is also flummoxed by this question
This question is way way too big. It's often easier for me to think of Old Hollywood and New Hollywood as two separate things for list-purposes and you can divide them by 1967, if you're following the logic in Mark Harris' brilliant "Pictures at a Revolution" or you can divide it anywhere between 1960s and 1970 I suppose. But it occurred to me the other day that films from the late 60s to early 70s are approaching their 50th birthdays so it's a little weird to call it "New Hollywood". Pretty soon we'll have to have three eras of Hollywood but how will we determine the line of demarcation? Old Hollywood (1920s through mid60s) New Hollywood (mid60sthrough ???) Newest Hollywood (??? through Armageddon)
DUSTY: If the Film Experience hadn't taken off, what would you be doing with your life?
Tragic Truth Bomb -- I'm still waiting for it to take off.
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Reader Comments (53)
ICYMI: http://deadline.com/2015/04/grace-of-monaco-lifetime-network-premiere-date-set-1201406096/
Also, what is that Marie Dressler still from?
fiona shaw is so amazing in the black dahlia.... she probably approached that movie the same way gina gershon had to with showgirls ("this is shitshow, so i'm gonna have to go my own way to do it right").
I feel so foolish for perpetuating the After Hours lie! I was sure you'd written about it as a gap of yours. My deepest apologies.
And I wish Anne Heche had become a big movie star, too.
Gus Van Sant's Psycho! Bring it On! Fiona Shaw in The Black Dahlia! Taxi Driver! Judy! This post has all of the very best things.
I would say that identifying with straight characters in film and fiction isn't strange, but it can feel exhausting sometimes. I try to accept a story on its own terms, but there are definitely romantic plots where I feel like the stakes are resolutely low or the conflict artificial. Or there are times when I absolutely cannot sit through another film about suburban Californian married couples getting bored with each other, or a plot that hinges on the conceit that men and women can *never* agree on things.
All of that can be alienating - when films insist on the universality of certain issues that aren't, really. But to be fair, some of the films I'm thinking of just aren't that good in the first place, and I'm also speaking from the midst of a long stretch of singledom.
How come Kathy Bates isn't being asked to play Dressler in a biopic?
If you ever want to give up some of the website space for ads instead, please go for it! i feel like i can speak for all TFE readers that we wouldn't mind one bit
Thanks for answering my question Nathaniel!
That's a great picture of Judy! Love all your choices, except maybe Irene Dunne who would fall into the slightly cooler but I get their appeal section for me. So, so happy to see Fay Bainter on the list she's one of those phenomenal character actresses that should be better known. And three of the actresses whose appeal you don't quite get, Joan Fontaine, Jennifer Jones and Loretta Young, I feel the same way about though every once in a while I'll run across a performance of theirs I enjoy.
Don't know if you've seen Red Dust or Libeled Lady but Harlow is terrific in both. Sorry not to see my favorite Linda Darnell in the lists but if you're not familiar with her work A Letter to Three Wives is the best place to start. Lastly I agree Judy Holliday was a treasure.
Also that's an interesting question about the newest era and what to call it. Brand Spanking New Hollywood? Newer Than New Hollywood? Hollywood 2.0?
jesse. bradford. learn it. live it. love it.
speaking of love:
"It can be frustrating when you don't ever see yourself in the moving image but I also think of it as a gift. It can strengthen your imagination and your empathy for your fellow man if you let it."
beautiful
This is why I subscribed to you - god of all things film.
I watched the Black Dahlia as an impressionable teenager and I WANTED to be crazy Fiona Shaw in my old age. Man, that performance deserves some sort of all time cameo/supporting actress award. Utterly genius.
Will supporting actress smackdown reappear over summer? :D
Morgan. Yes, more info in this post (which you musta missed)
Gus Van Sant's 'Psycho'! I loved that too, unapologetically. I saw it with my grandmother, who didn't appreciate the addition of actual masturbation. I agreed that was gilding the lily. Otherwise, I think it's swell. He should remake it again, like he threatened to when it came out!
For me, the funniest part about being gay and consuming mainstream culture is that I sometimes feel uncomfortable when gay culture is actually represented.
For instance, I'm not of fan of watching people kiss in general, but if gay characters kiss, sometimes I'll feel a little weirded out. Or I remember when Frank Ocean's album first came out and he was using male pronouns in a love song and it was soo strange and foreign to me. And then I realized that heteronormative culture had conditioned me to such an extreme that I react the way an uncultured person might because that's how we're treated, really -- to not be apart of culture.
Thank you! Easter madness, you're amazing. end of :)
Second the Kay Francis mention. Fascinating bio and amazing actress. ONE WAY PASSAGE is a must!!
You don't quite get Fontaine ... but De Havilland is one of your favorites? How is that possible? They are basically the same person. Same look. Same mannerisms. Same roles. Head scratching confusion.
Miriam Hopkins is old school BIG acting that will never return. Love her. Love you for saying you want more.
Merle Oberon is one of the worst actresses in history. Just another exceedingly beautiful woman who married well more than once. See, e.g., Paulette Goddard.
Since I haven't been mentioning her lately (trying not to annoy people), now I feel free to bring Gena Rowlands to this conversation. She should get a statue in the center of Touchedland.
Love this post!
Also on your last topic, Nat, just want you to know that if I could make a donation, I would! I live out of the US and do not possess a credit card. However, you should know that you have made a profound impression on this 17 year old's life since I started reading your blog in 2007 at age 10! Definitely didn't quite get everything I was reading at that age, but you have played a vital role in my education in film. Please keep at it!
CharlieG
I don't see them remotely as the same person. Moreover, they may look like siblings, but they also have considerable physical differences. De Havilland comes across as more lively and youthful than Fontaine.
I agree about Anne Heche. She has so much charisma.
@cal: I was looking for her name as I scanned the answer too. With AWUTI and Opening Night, Rowlands is the queen of mental illness on the silver screen. I would give Ricci in Black Snake Moan a citation, too. One of the most underrated performances in one of the hardest characters to pull off. Then, of course, Jennifer Jason Leigh, Rowlands's heir when it comes to the abandon they instill into their characterizations. It is hard to find roles in which she is NOT "off" in her filmography. I would also like to mention Gainsbourg in "Antichrist". That performance deserved a better script! Lars von Trier is one auteur who needs to "humble up" and at least collaborate with another writer (Tarantino and Almodovar as well - just recently of course).
Oh, just to add to that list, the two Isabelles: Adjani in Possession and Huppert in The Piano Teacher.
I'd divide into three eras right now:
Old Hollywood (1915 to 1966 or The Birth of a Nation to A Man for All Seasons.)
New Hollywood (1967 to 1993 or Bonnie and Clyde to Schindler's List.)
Newest Hollywood (1994 to now or Pulp Fiction to Birdman.)
Jesse Bradford! Poor guy... his career, after all the teen movies, depresses me.
Kathy Bates simply needs a leading role again.
OMG, she'd be PERFECT for A Marie Dressler biopic!
Thank you Sonja.
Also, Mr Rogers has conveniently forgotten about cra cra Sandy Dennis! She is her own acting style.
Hmmm - I usually associate Jesse Bradford with Heights, but then I deeply love Glenn Close and Elizabeth Banks, and how New York looks in that movie.
Love the pre-1950 actress comments, and that pic of Dressler.
@ Andrew: PayPal is international, so if you have (access to) an account, you can donate! ;-)
Dave -- i believe it's from Dinnner at Eight.
ScottC -- i onlly saw that once and dont remember much about it. maybe it's worth a rewatch.
3rtful -- good casting idea. Bates would indeed be a fun choice.
Davide -- i will seek that out. i need to see more. "Trouble in Paradise" is one my favorite 30s movies.
Joel6 -- i'll admit i don't know anything about Linda Darnell.
"And I think it's actually a detriment to straight white men that they're so pandered too; there's more to see in the world than what's in the mirror."
Memo to : Hollywood
cc : the academy
: )
"And I think it's actually a detriment to straight white men that they're so pandered too; there's more to see in the world than what's in the mirror."
Memo to : Hollywood
cc : the academy
: )
What a great question! The actresses before 1950--this is one of my favorite topics.
Jennifer Jones at Number 1
and in chronological order:
Myrna Loy
Greta Garbo
Bette Davis,
Ingrid Bergman
Greer Garson
Nathaniel, I'm elated that you will keep giving my favorite, Jennifer Jones, a try. I recommend The Song of Bernadette, Love Letters, Cluny Brown, Portrait of Jennie and Madame Bovary for a glimpse into her fascinating range and modern approach to the craft. She really doesn't get her due in film history.
If you ask me the same question I asked you, my answer would be that Jack Lemmon is an actor whose name should come up a lot more often when it is about the greatest actors of all time. He was as adept at comedy (e.g. Some Like It Hot) as at drama (e.g. China Syndrome), and when it comes to carrying a film as an everyman, he could easily out-Tom-Hanks, well, Tom Hanks (e.g. The Apartment). Add to that a long career full of stellar performances in five consecutive decades (in my universe, he's a two-time Oscar winner for 'Some Like It Hot' and 'Glengarry Glen Ross', with a win for 'The Apartment' only prevented by Norman Bates, and too many additional nominations to count), he should be a shoe-in for any shortlist of the greatest actors ever.
I love love LOVE Anne Heche in Birth! And whenever the remake of Psycho does come on her performance in it is fascinating to watch.
I actually just watched Whatever Happened to Baby Jane for the first time last week, and while I think it's just a good film as a whole, Bette Davis is insanely perfect in it! :)
And Nat, you must re watch Heights! Great film and everyone in it is great too.
Jesse Bradford in "Swimfan" - oof. Yes, please.
Jesse Bradford. I can never forget that name!
MrW, can't believe he didn't get a nom for Glengarry Glen Ross. Just wrong. Then he would have nine, tied with Tracy and Newman. And that sounds right to me.
brookesboy - I just recently saw that and agree that he was fantastic (I'd have to go over the actual nominees to see if I think he should replace someone). I haven't seen too many of his performances yet but after that and Some Like It Hot I can't wait to see more.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply to my question, Nathaniel. Very interesting. And, off course,
love is love, we all know love and heartbreak no matter what our sexual orientation is.
I was just as involved with the gay love in Weekend and Blue Is The Warmest Color as any straight love story I've seen.
I've not seen Looking, but
@DJDeeJay As a straight man, I say "Oof" to Erika Christensen in Swimfan. She's so hot I would not care that she went all psycho on me. Totally worth it!
Oh sorry, I was gonna say ; I've not seen Looking, but is it worth diving into now that it's been cancelled? Did they wrap up the show in a good way?
Mr W
Jacks wins were for Mister Roberts - supp. and Save The Tiger - lead. Burt Lancaster won for Elmer Gantry in 1960 not Norman Bates.
3rtful: Kathy Bates could win another Oscar if she plays Ma Joad in the new version of The Grapes of Wrath (rights purchased by Speilberg). Unless it is produced for television, in which case she'll be up for an Emmy!
Marcos a second Oscar and a second nomination in Best Actress is all I want for Ms Bates.
mame: He said "In his universe."
Yay for Teri Garr love! After Hours was the first thing I had seen her in outside of Friends, but I didn't realize she was "Phoebe's mom" until after the movie was done and I looked her up on IMDb. THAT was genius casting. Come to think of it, all of the parents on that show were perfectly cast. I recently saw Tootsie for the first time and loved her in that too.
And I'll echo the love for Heights, it's a weirdly under appreciated film considering the stars in it. I watch the DVD quite often actually.
As for crazy characters, I'm still in love with Portman in Black Swan and Adjani in Possession is just beyond bonkers.
I l-o-v-e Anne Heche (Six Days, Seven Nights and all!).
I l-o-v-e Shelley Duvall (Faerie Tale Theatre raised me).
I l-o-v-e Teri Garr (seriously, she should've won that Oscar in '82!).
Surprised you didn't mention Jean Arthur, who was just delightful Mr. Deeds Goes to Town, You Can't Take It With You, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington et al. A true, underrated, stone-cold Old Hollywood treasure.
P.S. Naomi Watts did descent-into-madness quite brilliantly in Mulholland Drive, yes?
@DJDeeJay:
In the actual universe, in 1992, Al Pacino won Best Actor for 'Scent of a Woman'. I'd say we have an obvious candidate for replacement right there.
MrW - funnily enough, I haven't seen Scent of a Woman. And I know it's generally accepted that Pacino is hammy and over the top in it, but there are some other supposedly-agreed-upon Oscar opinions that I disagree with (I like that Shakespeare in Love won, I'm okay with Berry winning, etc.), so I'm interested to see what I think of that performance. I mean, we all know people in real life who are hammy and over the top (or, at least, I do), but for some reason as soon as we see that up on screen we can't handle it.