Split Decision: "Poor Things"
Wednesday, March 6, 2024 at 6:00PM No two people feel the exact same way about any film. Thus, Team Experience is pairing up to debate the merits of this year’s Oscar movies. Here's Abe Friedtanzer and Nick Taylor on Poor Things…
NICK: Hello Abe! Congratulations on Poor Things winning the Team Experience Award for Best Picture. I’m glad a film that moves, sounds, and dresses in such an offbeat manner has become such a critical and popular hit. It’s always nice to see weird art winning. That being said, I don’t count myself as a fan of Poor Things, and have a lot of complaints I could throw at its many, many, unapologetic excesses. Still, I like starting these Split Decision panels on notes of praise, and I’d really love to hear what you think of Poor Things.
ABE: Hey Nick! Always happy to chat about movies. I had the pleasure of seeing Poor Things at the New York Film Festival back in September right after May December, a film that many liked that I did not. I've been a fan of Yorgos Lanthimos' since the incredible Oscar-nominated Greek film Dogtooth, and I found both The Lobster and The Favourite extremely interesting and engaging. I was very turned off, however, by The Killing of a Sacred Deer. Lanthimos' offbeat nature and his winning blend of pitch-black comedy and drama is usually quite effective, but Poor Things is a departure even from that…
When I saw it, I took some time to think about it and it gradually built in my mind, ultimately ending up as my #1 film of the year. It's overflowing with creativity and hits so many incredible notes with its cast, storyline, and stunning visuals. While I can understand how the premise might be very disturbing to some and a hurdle to even accept, it didn't bother me and somehow worked. I'm still dazzled by it thinking back to the experience of seeing it. When and where did you see it, and what was your initial reaction?
NICK: I saw it the day before Oscar nominations were announced, after months of polarized, impassioned reactions swirling in my head, both from online testimonials and conversations with friends. If I’m remembering correctly, the ticket clerk at the theater told me “have a weird time!” with a very excited grin on her face. Like you, I couldn’t stand The Killing of a Sacred Deer, but I’ve otherwise liked or loved Lanthimos’s previous films.
So, I walked into the theater with what I will call nervous optimism, hoping for the best and steeling myself for the worst. And initially, I was having an okay time! It wasn’t grooving to a wavelength I connected to, but I appreciated its weirdness. Willem Dafoe’s face and voice, the proudly atonal score, all the fish-eye lenses and chromatic variations with the cinematography. She’s not like other girls! She’s weird!
But Mark Ruffalo was the first element to really put me off Poor Things. It’s such an excessively scaled performance, ridiculous and unmodulated without really registering to me as the actor having much control over what he’s doing. I can’t argue that there’s a lack of directorial vision behind his choices, but it plays as messily unconvincing in a way that was reflected in the kooky architectures and the multicolored skies. I love a movie where it’s clear everyone involved was encouraged to go for it and let their imaginations go wild, but none of this felt visually coherent or tonally interesting to me.
ABE: That’s funny, because I thought Ruffalo was excellent and he would probably get my vote for supporting actor of the year. I haven’t always appreciated his performances as much as most, and in fact wouldn’t have championed most of his previous Oscar nominations since I didn’t find them to be all that spectacular. But leaning into that weirdness and excess here definitely worked for me, and I was worried that he wouldn’t score an Oscar nomination for what I believe to be his best performance to date. But I do get how its excess could have turned you off.
Emma Stone was also incredible, and I love how she’s managed to try such different things in such a short time. While there are arguments being made that she doesn’t need a second Oscar already, I think she’s absolutely deserving (Gladstone is too) and it’s so starkly different from La La Land, and Birdman, and The Favourite, which may actually be my second-favorite performance of hers. Did you like Stone, and would you want her to win for the performance alone?
NICK: I didn’t like Stone either! I admire the risks she’s taking with this performance, and her commitment to making weird art across her career. But I found a lot of her choices to be underwhelming and surface-level. It’s a tricky role - an infantile woman whose tremendous intellectual growth is tied pretty significantly to erotic self-expression, with lots of work necessarily requiring pronounced changes to her vocal cadences and body language to externalize those internal shifts. There’s plenty of moment-to-moment stuff I enjoy, like when she stops herself from laughing at a premature orgasm or the routine she develops with her johns. Still, I don’t see Stone adding a ton to the character as written or connecting the many dots Bella evolves through across the plot.
I would not vote for her, though I feel more of my problems with her come back to the script, which is so much more insistent on telling us how to feel about these characters and these themes than any of Lanthimos’s previous films. I apologize if this is too mean, but Kathryn Hunter’s monologues feel about as declamatory as America Ferrera’s big speech in Barbie, except this brothel Madame has to bite someone on the ear, because we can’t be too serious or unironic with our statements on The Wrongs Women Face. Also, I wish we could’ve seen any real reckoning from Bella when she learns how Godwin made her. That should be a way bigger deal to her, right?
If I were to give it an Oscar in any category it’s nominated for, it would either be Makeup & Hairstyling or Score, though I’m not sure that means I’d vote for them. Frankly, I’m a bit embarrassed at how much I’ve discussed the acting and writing of a film with such demanding aesthetic. Is there a filmmaking element of Poor Things that stands out for you?
ABE: Though I liked everything, I think the production design stands out the most. I keep picturing the vivid colors and sets that make this seem like a fantasy set in another world. I think back to the deck of the boat with the sky and all of those gorgeous interiors. The costumes also wowed me, and while it seems strange for Barbie to only go home with a Best Original Song nomination, I do think this film should have the edge over that one in these two races.
I’ll close my defense of this movie by saying that I do think the premise of this film is what will turn people off most, though evidently others will find fault with lots about it! While discussing this film this much has surely made you like it less, it’s making me want to plan a re-watch!
NICK: Let me backload my testimony with a lot of compliments, since I feel like my negativity was even more negative than I expected. The giant ruffled shoulders of Bella’s outfits were a joy, and I thought the boat and God’s house were my favorite sets to poke through and examine. I love everything about Hanna Schygulla’s character, from her cumulus cloud hair to her utter amusement at Ruffalo attempting to murder her. Last but not least, I thought Chris Abbott’s performance gave Poor Things the venomous comedic edge I’d been wanting for more of its runtime. The film definitely stuck its landing for me.
Thank you for being such a great conversation partner, Abe! Discussing the film with you and hearing what you liked about it has made me curious to re-watch it again, especially since Lanthimos’s films usually feel more revealing on a second go-around.
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Reader Comments (23)
Lanthimos peaked with THE LOBSTER. His most recent two films lack the bite and daring of his earlier works. POOR THINGS is fun but superficial, and worse, it pretends to be feminist when it's simply spending 140 minutes objectifying a pretty (very frequently nude) woman! This one really needed some ladies behind the scenes.
Nice read
Things I liked/loved Dafoe,Hunter,Production Design,SFX,Costumes,Youssef and Stone
Things I hated with a passion Mark Ruffalo,he's not as bad as he was in Spotlight but sheesh is he doing way too much in an already busy fussy weird film,if he'd have dialled it back a little I may have believed he loved Bella but I just didn't buy it.
What happened to the natural not tyring a million things at once actor from You Can Count On Me,Foxcatcher,The Kids Are Alright and We Don't Live Here Anymore.
Poor Dafoe the best performance in the film and so deserving of all those flowers RDJ is getting,still doing interesting inventive work 40 yrs into his career,I don't want him winning a honorary Oscar in a few years,he merits a competitive one. .
This is currently my 2nd favorite film of 2023 as I really loved the film though I really that Ramy Youssef and Willem Dafoe deserved the Best Supporting Actor nomination much more than Mark Ruffalo did because I think their characters were far more complex and more interesting. I love Mark Ruffalo and he's awesome in the film but I think Youssef and Dafoe were better. I also really liked some of the smaller performances in the film such as Kathryn Hunter as well as Hanna Schygulla as I was so happy to see her in a movie in the big screen as she was a joy to watch.
I appreciated many elements of this movie (score, set design, costumes), but vastly preferred The Lobster and The Favourite.
I agree with Wae Mest re: needing some ladies behind the scenes. This reeked of male fantasy to me. She's a little girl mentally and this man wants to fuck her...ew. When he touches her cl*t I was seriously grossed out.
I felt the entire movie focused wayyy too much on sex. I feel in this story of a woman mentally growing from baby to adult in the span of the movie, there are so many elements of life that can be explored. Sure, sex can be one of them, but the stubborn obsession with this character who is essentially a little girl having lots of sex really felt, again, like severely perverted male fantasy.
I am glad that unlike Saltburn (excess without purpose) or May December (serious subject handled tastelessly), she at least learned a human lesson through it all, but it felt really excessive.
The most offensive scene to me was when the father hired her as a prostitute and forced his two sons to watch and take notes... Again, gross. I get it's a movie and it's a character acting as a human might, but was it really necessary? Like, it wasn't funny to me, it was just gross.
After seeing this movie, I couldn't help but sense in interviews that Emma Stone and Yorgos come off like they know each each *very* well if you know what I mean...lol. Just saying *shrug*
That said, there were lots of laughs and I didn't have a terrible time. There's a lot to appreciate/admire, but to love? Not for me.
I thought Kathryn Hunter was really good, and honestly, even tho he's a bit broad, I really did enjoy Mark Ruffalo.
For me, an extremely overrated, overrated, overrated movie.
And extremely tacky.
Stone is great.
Dafoe is good.
Period.
PS: Ruffalo is a despicable actor. This is his "least worst" performance, yet he still sucks.
He and Jeremy Renner are incredible hammy, two of the most disgusting actors I've ever seen. I see their faces and I feel sick.
Nothing against Abe and Nick, but I would love to read Lynn and Elisa’s split decision takes on this film (assuming they’re on opposite sides of the fence).
It's my #1 towards the best picture nominees and I dare to say that is Yorgos best picture. If not this, it's second to The Favorite.
In the context of the race I think that it makes it where Barbie fails
@Philip H
Yorgos's movies all contain an over abundence of sex and masturbation and i'm finding it tiresome and more than a little odd.
This is the first Yorgos Lanthimos film I didn't fall for so easily. I think it's a stunning visual triumph, but I think it's overly reliant on sexual content as a storytelling mechanism. There's a cruelty to his vision that makes Bella's maturation almost entirely through physical desire seem exploitative. I like the turn when they get to Paris and she seems to have finally matured to the point of having her own agency beyond compulsion in those decisions, but it's too little, too late for me.
This movie was very entertaining in the theater, I’ll give it that.
But it left a bad taste in my mouth. It’s so bold and confident that you almost miss how ugly the ideas and even the visuals are.
I'm really looking forward to the day when Lanthimos, like so many "quirky" directors before him, falls out of fashion with Oscar voters.
Stone's performance has been so overpraised this season. If Bella Baxter were cast with an actress known for her physical comedy chops - say Kristin Wiig or even someone as Oscar-friendly as Jennifer Lawrence - the performance would have been much the same but wouldn't be an Oscar frontrunner.
@jules
Since when isn't Emma Stone known for her physical comedy chops? Was Easy A so long ago that people forget what she can do, lol?
I'm on the "love it" side of the spectrum here, though it took a couple more viewings to get there. I was initially a bit let down that this didn't have the same bite as Yorgos' previous films, but the more I watched it, the more I could appreciate that this is his version of a fairy tale. It's also a film that's never less than exhilarating to look at, and yorgos is doing something that all my favorite filmmakers do: he embraces the inherent artifice of filmmaking, making everything look off-kilter and even gaudy, and even having all of the main actors be Americans doing accents (which I initially found to be a strange choice, but warmed up to it when I saw the register of the performances).
I also initially thought Mark Ruffalo was miscast, but he's so much fun in the role, and I like that he commits fully to something you wouldn't imagine out of him. I'm sorry there's people who have such an intense hatred for him that I want to recommend therapy every time they express it (seriously people, unless they murdered someone, no actor is worth hating that much).
@RichterScale I'm already in therapy but thanks for the offer.
I will agree with the poster above that said Bella's discovery of sex seemed all the movie was about. Sure, it's one part of maturity, but there were so many potential aspects of her growing into an adult the film could've explored, but nope -- all we get is her dicovering sex.. with herself, with johns, with objects, with the people closest to her, etc. Yorgos' obsession with sex in his movies does strike me as a bit odd..
I personally LOVED this movie. It's interesting that so many people had trouble with its sexuality because that's one of the things I admired most about it. It's positing that sex can be liberating and can teach us about ourselves. This is so out of fashion in our fairly prudish climate but the idea will probably come back around to popularity.
And how people can look at what Emma Stone is doing and be underwhelmed by it is shocking to me... but Oscar season (just like this series) is a lesson in realizing TO EACH THEIR OWN with literally every single detail of art.
Too many Americans in this comment section. Hope the film wins four Oscars on Sunday.
Nat, it has nothing to do with prudishness and everything to do with how sex in this film is seen through a leery heterosexual male gaze, counterproductively reducing Bella to a sex object for the camera. When she asks Duncan why men have trouble with performance stamina in bed, it feels like a line written by (because it was) and FOR men, to draw their wince of acknowledgment. Again, this film desperately needed some ladies behind the camera!
I agree with Robert G. above...I found the movie depressing and exploitative, sexist and ugly. (Albeit with splendid production values!) I also thought Mark Ruffalo (whom I usually love) gave the kind of performance an average high school thespian would give, a la Snidely Whiplash.
But I also loathed The Favourite, which I similarly found depressing, exploitative, sexist, and ugly (which definitely put me at odds with most folks on this website).
Another fun one! Nick - it's funny you say the film stuck its landing because I think yes and no. No in that the film's final act (marked by the husband's reappearance) seems to come out of nowhere and felt kind of tacked on; yes in that his comeuppance and the last scene was absolutely, no-notes perfect.
Frank Zappa: I actually think Elisa and I are on the same page about POOR THINGS. IIRC, she really liked it - and so did I.
On the sexualization of Bella - I understand the complaints. There's a reason this is the one film I told my parents they wouldn't like! But I don't really see it as exploitative, perhaps in part because Bella is so fierce and the men around her generally so pitiful, and in part because Emma Stone was clearly ALL in and 100% on board with her character's sexual voracity. Even if she wasn't behind the camera, I'm pretty confident that as both star and producer she could've had changes made if she'd felt them necessary. I don't get any sense that she was pressured to accede to Lanthimos' horny male gaze - this wasn't a Blue is the Warmest Color kind of situation.
On Ruffalo - he was amusing, but there was a little too much of him, and I don't mean that in a dirty way. I mean he got genuinely tiresome after a while, even though that was kinda the point.
I loved Dafoe's performance. He topped my own best supporting actor ballot.
@DK, Stone is best known for La La Land and playing Mary Jane in the Spider-man movies, and her last attempt at comedy was the woeful Cruella. Let's not pretend she's Melissa McCarthy or Whoopi Goldberg, now.
I have yet to see it, but regarding Lanthimos, as his career progresses, I can feel more and more he is constantly copying someone else. Like Dogtooth/The Castle of Purity, The Favourite bringing a lot of elements from an 80’s brazilian soap opera and now Poor Things which seems, aesthetically, like a Nine Inch Nails music video. Hope I’m wrong because I love Emma Stone and Willem Dafoe. (Seeking therapy for my despise on Ruffalo. LOL)
I am with dtsf, Wae Mest, Paranoid Android and Robert G.
This movie is not sex-positive. It's exploitative.